The short version is that the dealer has denied to replace my engine under warranty due to the fact that I have a exhaust cutout. They are stating that "due to the lack of backpressure." <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />
Can a cutout in any way be the cause a cracked block? I guess what Im asking is for technical experts to feed on this and explain it to me.
What I feel happened is that the head gasket was seeping or was defective and coolant was filling up the cylinder and something had to give. And since its a aluminum block the rods didnt but the cylinder did.

Please help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />

 

<img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> - run as far away from that dealership as you can!!

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Jason99T/A ]</small>

 

Actually the GM warranty rep for the region along with the dealership is creating this <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />
I have a meeting with the dealer and GM rep tomorrow, but... with "exhaust" not being my strong area I really dont have any ammo to take with me.
Can anyone here tell me why it would or .... how it would be impossible for it to have caused it?

Thanks,

 

It's all crap Brent.

They are just messing with you.

A cutout just bypasses the muffler. So what's the difference between that and a Loudmouth?

Situations like this are very very tricky. This is an expensive rebuild. I would dress nice and not be a punk or a jerk. But if you are in warranty, and don't have slicks on the cars or your cats off, I would be firm but polite. "I am not an expert on cars but I like my car I just want an engine that is not defective. My wife drives the car too with our babies in the car. We just want to be safe sir what would happen if the engine locked up at 60mph on the highway. That cutout? I have it on there for sound. I never take it off." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

Well, from what I've been told, it sounds posible. Cylinder wall burn?

But if its after the cat, it would be just the same as a cat-back exhaust.

 

bunch of BS. loss of backpressure? how would THAT cause a cracked block anyways. just end up with loss of power. if the cutout was placed before the cats ( i know its not possible on a stock car), the maybe you could screw up your valves...but as far as cracking the block, gimme a break. tell them to prove how a cutout WOULD crack a block. make them give you documented instances and a reason to back it up.

 

Thanks gentlemen. I know its <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> and everyone else knows its <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> but since the cutout is after the cats I have already told them I just like the way it sounded. And then I said lets look at the tires, code them for authenticity to the fatory and measure the tread.
THe car only has 10,500 miles on it, OEM original tires and I have babied this ride almost to the point of obsession.
Again thanks to all!

 

Well, what you do to win this is discredit the warranty rep.

The best way to do this is first, by knowing what YOU are talking about. The second part is by showing that HE doesn't know what he is talking about.

I would guess that talking to an attorney and the Better Business Bureau would be your first step among following GMs "complaint" guidelines.

My guess is that if you let the warranty rep do all the talking, he could tell you all kinds of stuff that may sound credible if you don't know what he's talking about. BUT, I figure all you need to know is a few facts about cylinder wall pressure and exhaust to find out if he's stoopy or not.

If you can ask a few simple technical questions and trip him up then you've got 'em by the gonads and know that he's full of BS. Then, it's harder for him to prove his story and easier for you to get your warranty work done.

Hmm...kinda like in "My Cousin Vinnie" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

I would take a tape recorder with you and make sure you make it know that you are going to record their resons for denying your warranty. If they try to feed you some stupid <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> reason that you know is not right, you can use that in court and tear them a new one. If they know you are recording them then they probably won't try to bs you. Good luck.

 

Read this:

http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8124

Good luck.

Andrew

 

Well it looks as if this will go to arbitration. My last question/favor in this forum is would anyone that has any type of auto mechaincs certification be willing to sign a letter from my attorney which will state nothing more but the fact that "the mods I have installed could in no way have attributed or caused a cylinder block to crack" I know this is alot to ask and you can mail it to me or fax it to me either one is submissable as evidence.
This is of course in laymans terms but Im not sure how it will read when the lawyer is done with it.
AFter talking to Barry yesterday at Q-tec Im pretty sure he will just because he knows that this is a bunch of BS.
If anyone would like to help me fight this battle with the dealership I will be eternally grateful and if there would ever be a need for me or my services you can bet I will be there. I dont have $10,000 for a new engine.
You can e-mail me: brentws6@directvinternet.com call me at home work or cell.
h:281-379-4772
w:713-307-4676
c:832-563-3285

Thanks to all,
Brent

 

The only crack that a cutout could cause might be the stuff the dealer is smoking.

Completely rediculous. Follow PSJ's advice as far as being polite, and kindly ask for arbitration. You will win.

 

An exhaust cutout cannot cause a cracked block, period. Here are the relevant physics:

First, the term "backpressure" is an unfortunate choice of words, frequently abused by the gearhead world. The correct term/phrase should be "tuned exhaust scavenging." Exhaust gases are forced through your exhaust system by a combination of four effects:
1) Pressure wave caused by the opening of the exhaust valves that releases high-pressure combustion gases.
2) Mechanical pumping of the combustion by-product gases by the pistons.
3) For "tuned" systems, a phasing of the pressure and acoustic pulses within the exhanst pipes. These are a function of pipe length, pipe width, and initial intensity of the exhaust pulses.
4) Scavenging effect of the exhaust system imparted by the *velocity* of the exhaust gases (in other words, giving the gases a lot of velocity in the pipe can actually cause the momentum of the gas to "pull" exhaust gas upstream through pressure effects).

Note: intake/exhaust overlap in camshafts thrive on points 3) and 4) above to create more flow into the cylinder. But that's another story.

Now, all of the above assumes that you have a free flowing exhaust. If the exhaust is not able to flow without restriction, then 4) above is definitely affected, 3) also gets affected because the phasing becomes a harder task. In particular, 1) and 2) lose a lot of efficiency because they are relying on a pressure surplus in the cylinder to expel gases; raise the pressure in the exhaust, and this does not work as well.

Now this discussion is much too brief to really understand all of this - I suggest you go read some online stuff on how headers work. But you can see immediately that the term "backpressure" is almost ignorant when you look at the real physics and processes involved. Now, to the cracked block:

The reduction in exhaust flow caused by the stock restrictive exhaust system is probably worth about 15 HP. Thus, putting on a cutout and opening it is getting you likely somewhere between 10 and 15 HP. For them to make their case, they would have to claim that this increase caused you block to crack. But this is bs. Why?

1) If it were true, then WS6 and SS cars would all have cracked blocks. They have better exhausts, don't they?
2) If you did not have a cutout on your exhaust, you would have cracked your block next winter. The variation in HP for a stock motor is going to be around 40 HP from hot summer to cold winter (SAE correction factor of 0.95 to 1.05 at the extremes).
3) The structural design and integrity of the block would require several hundreds of ft-lbs more of torque before cracking would ensue - you were obviously nowhere near that (but see comment).
4) On this board, we have had many cars get up into the 600-700 RWHP range. Usually, other things go at that level before the block.

Having said that, a cracked block would be a common result of mis-spraying nitrous on a motor. In particular, this could happen if nitrous was sprayed at too low of an RPM. It may be that the dealership thinks you sprayed the motor and have now taken the system off. If that is the case, then it is no wonder they are giving you the run-around.

Hit them with some good info, and then if necessary let a good mechanic/lawyer do your talking.

 

Hey guys, maybe I'm mistaken here, but isn't the onus on the dealer/rep to PROVE that the cutout caused the crack in the block? I'd make sure and get their explanation in writing - I can't imagine how they would explain the connection. Also (if possible) please post the name of the dealership - I know I wouldn't want to buy from these guys if indeed they put you through all this simply due to a cutout.

FWIW, here is a link to the SEMA page which provides some good step-by-step instructions (most of which it appears have been taken) along with some relevant links.
SEMA.org - Warranty Denial

Good luck!

<small>[ July 27, 2002, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Fulton 1 ]</small>

 

AS far fetched and absurd as this all seems it looks like Im the one guy out of ten thousand or more that has a hard assed warranty rep that is refusing to honor his company's warranty although there is a federal law protecting me. GM is just simply put making me work for this. Hes hoping I will just go away, but he is dead wrong.
I see alot of people reccommending the SEMA webpage for my situation. Believe it or not I have presented the Magnuson-Moss Warrant Act to the dealer rep and the dealership. This dealership (blaming the GM warranty rep)have both simply said "so what" "you placed mods on your car, your warranty is null and void"
Ive sent two certified letters to the dealership, met with the owner and general manager and the manager of service and parts. Still no positive results. However if this ever happens to anyone else on these forums just fyi, the next step is arbitration with the BBB and if after that its still not resolved, I will have the attorney general will file a suit (which Ive already started the process on) against the dealership. Things have to happen in this order.
Monday I will be calling all of the local newspapers to sling this particular dealership (Beck and Masten Pontiac of Houston) through some really nasty mud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> I refuse to accept defeat on this.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Brent:
<strong>AS far fetched and absurd as this all seems it looks like Im the one guy out of ten thousand or more that has a hard assed warranty rep that is refusing to honor his company's warranty although there is a federal law protecting me. GM is just simply put making me work for this. Hes hoping I will just go away, but he is dead wrong.
I see alot of people reccommending the SEMA webpage for my situation. Believe it or not I have presented the Magnuson-Moss Warrant Act to the dealer rep and the dealership. This dealership (blaming the GM warranty rep)have both simply said "so what" "you placed mods on your car, your warranty is null and void"
Ive sent two certified letters to the dealership, met with the owner and general manager and the manager of service and parts. Still no positive results. However if this ever happens to anyone else on these forums just fyi, the next step is arbitration with the BBB and if after that its still not resolved, I will have the attorney general will file a suit (which Ive already started the process on) against the dealership. Things have to happen in this order.
Monday I will be calling all of the local newspapers to sling this particular dealership (Beck and Masten Pontiac of Houston) through some really nasty mud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> I refuse to accept defeat on this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't realize you were here in Houston. Have you tried taking your car to Munday Chevrolet? I took my SS there with lid, MAF, TB, MACs, and ORY when my oil pump went out (the first time). They didn't even mention my mods.

'Los

 

If it's going to be that much trouble, take your car somewhere that is outside of that GM rep's district. I have been round and round with dealers in the past, I just go around them. Or if need be, I go over their head. That rep has to prove without a shadow of a doubt that your cutout cracked your motor, has to have documentation stating it, and proof that his documentation is correct. If he doesn't have that, you can take GM to court....

This is definately one area where Ford has GM beat......customer service <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Josh

 

Even my chevy mech hates GM at times. But Damn, even my dealer wouldn't pull this BS. But, I did have to go to 5 dealers to find a good one.. I drive 1.5 hours each way to have work done..

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> But, I did have to go to 5 dealers to find a good one.. I drive 1.5 hours each way to have work done.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yup. It seems that more important than the brand of car you buy is the dealer that you have do the service work. They definitely make the difference between a happy customer and a pissed off one.

 

That's some of the craziest **** I've ever heard. There AIN'T NO WAY a cuttout could lead to a cracked block.