Help me pick which heads/cam to get.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
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Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. I think if you are going with any of the bigger names like ARE, MTI, GTP you cant go wrong. I would go with 11:1 compression though and a 224 or a 226 cam on 114LSA and 55x lift. The idle isnt bad and you pass emissions easily. Get double springs etc as well while you are at it.
I am considering a head and cam change on my current motor from ARE. Might go with a very aggressive port on my current S1 heads with 2.02 and 1.57 valves and up the compression to 11.2:1 with double valvesprings. Then run a 226/230 range cam on 112LSA with 566 lift and see how it works <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I know OnyxSS is running really strong with his S2 setup (11.1@123mph I think)
and that is the range I would like to be in. Especially mph <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Chris
I am considering a head and cam change on my current motor from ARE. Might go with a very aggressive port on my current S1 heads with 2.02 and 1.57 valves and up the compression to 11.2:1 with double valvesprings. Then run a 226/230 range cam on 112LSA with 566 lift and see how it works <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I know OnyxSS is running really strong with his S2 setup (11.1@123mph I think)
and that is the range I would like to be in. Especially mph <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Chris
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]there is not a whole hell of a lot of difference in the normal cam range - 221/221-224/224. There is power to be made, don't get me wrong, but it's not the huge difference some make it out to be<hr></blockquote>
Okay, to all the new cam shoppers and people learning about LS1 cams, repeat that quote ten times! Then follow it with this quote 10 more times:
[quote]Bigger is not always better when it comes to cams<hr></blockquote>
between 221 and 224 is the sweet spot for a great balance of driveability and performance. Cams in this range are not a whole lot different on the dyno or track. 224 is NOT better than 221, and vice versa. Please, please, please get the "Bigger is better" idea out of your head completely when you are researching cams.
If you under-cam a motor or over-cam a motor, you can end up with the same performance, but the undercammed motor will drive MUCH better. Keep that in mind.
Tony
Okay, to all the new cam shoppers and people learning about LS1 cams, repeat that quote ten times! Then follow it with this quote 10 more times:
[quote]Bigger is not always better when it comes to cams<hr></blockquote>
between 221 and 224 is the sweet spot for a great balance of driveability and performance. Cams in this range are not a whole lot different on the dyno or track. 224 is NOT better than 221, and vice versa. Please, please, please get the "Bigger is better" idea out of your head completely when you are researching cams.
If you under-cam a motor or over-cam a motor, you can end up with the same performance, but the undercammed motor will drive MUCH better. Keep that in mind.
Tony
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. I would pick the shop you want to do the heads first (you can't go wrong with any of the shops to the right), and have them build you a package to your liking. Tell them your goals and I am sure they will come up with a killer package for you.
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: JayLS1-327 ]</p>
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: JayLS1-327 ]</p>
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Mark, you have getting some good feedback.
I have had the opportunity to check out a lot of modified LS1's over the last few years.
I have run five different cams too.
Here are my thoughts...
1) Reliable? Don't go more than 560 lift. At all.
2) Not going to run slicks? Then you may want to question running a 112lsa camshaft, or any cam that will give you huge increases in bottom-mid torque. You will never be able to hook the car on the street. And I would not worry about the rearend unless you go racing a lot, or do a bigger gear than stock.
3) Find a car or three that you admire from a performance perspective and emulate them.
4) Most of the LS1 cam grinds don't lope that much. The 218-222 stuff has a moderate lope. Lopes just as much as a LPE 219 cam. If you take off the cats you can hear the cam more. With cats on many folks will not realize you have a cam.
5) I would not go over a 229 duration. A 229 will lope hard. But for your setup I'd not go over 226 duration.
6) People are splitting hairs in here. 222 vs 224 does not matter that much.
7) I would probably target a 224 duration if you want lope. Most of the stuff below that does not lope/cam that hard.
I ran:
232/232//116 GTP
221/224//113 Comp
236/240//111 Comp
228/228//111 Comp
Now...
242/242//114 Lunati
I have had the opportunity to check out a lot of modified LS1's over the last few years.
I have run five different cams too.
Here are my thoughts...
1) Reliable? Don't go more than 560 lift. At all.
2) Not going to run slicks? Then you may want to question running a 112lsa camshaft, or any cam that will give you huge increases in bottom-mid torque. You will never be able to hook the car on the street. And I would not worry about the rearend unless you go racing a lot, or do a bigger gear than stock.
3) Find a car or three that you admire from a performance perspective and emulate them.
4) Most of the LS1 cam grinds don't lope that much. The 218-222 stuff has a moderate lope. Lopes just as much as a LPE 219 cam. If you take off the cats you can hear the cam more. With cats on many folks will not realize you have a cam.
5) I would not go over a 229 duration. A 229 will lope hard. But for your setup I'd not go over 226 duration.
6) People are splitting hairs in here. 222 vs 224 does not matter that much.
7) I would probably target a 224 duration if you want lope. Most of the stuff below that does not lope/cam that hard.
I ran:
232/232//116 GTP
221/224//113 Comp
236/240//111 Comp
228/228//111 Comp
Now...
242/242//114 Lunati
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Nine Ball-
That's pretty much what I've been able to pick up here. I still can't decide which lsa to go with. Maybe the 'Hammer' cam is what I'm looking for. Maybe not. Damn! I still can't decide. There's too many choices. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
You're right though. Ultimately, driveability is the main factor. Does anyone have a good sound clip of a 222 or 224/.561/114 cam? I'd have a better chance of passing emissions too, right?
That's pretty much what I've been able to pick up here. I still can't decide which lsa to go with. Maybe the 'Hammer' cam is what I'm looking for. Maybe not. Damn! I still can't decide. There's too many choices. <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
You're right though. Ultimately, driveability is the main factor. Does anyone have a good sound clip of a 222 or 224/.561/114 cam? I'd have a better chance of passing emissions too, right?
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. John-
You're right. The info is great and I'm getting closer to a decision. I appreciate all the help. I guess I've been thinking the lsa is what determined the lope. That's the impression I got from what I've been reading. Is that wrong?
Can you give me a very general laymans version of what the different numbers mean? I'm getting an idea from disussions but now I'm a bit confused. I only want to do the job once and get the right cam the first time so I can enjoy the hell out of my car (even more). <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Thanks.
You're right. The info is great and I'm getting closer to a decision. I appreciate all the help. I guess I've been thinking the lsa is what determined the lope. That's the impression I got from what I've been reading. Is that wrong?
Can you give me a very general laymans version of what the different numbers mean? I'm getting an idea from disussions but now I'm a bit confused. I only want to do the job once and get the right cam the first time so I can enjoy the hell out of my car (even more). <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Thanks.
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Anything below 224 doesn't lope hard? Listen for yourself:
T1 cam thru cutout
Umm... I think that definitely does not sound stock. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Tony
T1 cam thru cutout
Umm... I think that definitely does not sound stock. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Tony
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TECH Junkie
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,604
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From: Los Angeles
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by WS6 TransAm Girl:
<strong>
Actually I have FLPs with ORP's and the Loudmouth... believe what you will but it sounds like a stroker motor. I don't think anyone would believe that I have a 218/224 cam in the car. I have heard *lope*... I don't live under a rock, I am at the track quite often and I know what *lope* is. And with the right setup, this cam just sounds MEAN.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting, what does a stroker motor sound like? *cough* <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Loudmouth, cutout, its all the same. Without a muffler it'll take a lot less cam to sound lopey...even a small 218/224 would lope, as you have said <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
<strong>
Actually I have FLPs with ORP's and the Loudmouth... believe what you will but it sounds like a stroker motor. I don't think anyone would believe that I have a 218/224 cam in the car. I have heard *lope*... I don't live under a rock, I am at the track quite often and I know what *lope* is. And with the right setup, this cam just sounds MEAN.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting, what does a stroker motor sound like? *cough* <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Loudmouth, cutout, its all the same. Without a muffler it'll take a lot less cam to sound lopey...even a small 218/224 would lope, as you have said <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>I'd lean towards a 224/224//114 personally. A 112 will lope more.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds like what jmX said early on about the TR224/114. Hmmmm. Yet another step closer to a final decision. It seems to me that the concensus says (for my desired results) that a cam anywhere between 222-224/114 lsa and I should stay under .560 for reliability. Is .561 close enough if I use dual springs John?
Once again, I see that the Thunder GTP S2 heads with the TR224 looks like my combo. I may end up thanking jmX just like he said I would.
Okay, so what about the valvetrain stuff? With that setup can I use stock pushrods, chain, rockers, lifters, etc.? While I'm at it, should I go with an ARE oil pump (my car is a 2000)?
<strong>I'd lean towards a 224/224//114 personally. A 112 will lope more.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds like what jmX said early on about the TR224/114. Hmmmm. Yet another step closer to a final decision. It seems to me that the concensus says (for my desired results) that a cam anywhere between 222-224/114 lsa and I should stay under .560 for reliability. Is .561 close enough if I use dual springs John?
Once again, I see that the Thunder GTP S2 heads with the TR224 looks like my combo. I may end up thanking jmX just like he said I would.
Okay, so what about the valvetrain stuff? With that setup can I use stock pushrods, chain, rockers, lifters, etc.? While I'm at it, should I go with an ARE oil pump (my car is a 2000)?
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by jmX:
<strong>
Interesting, what does a stroker motor sound like? *cough* <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Loudmouth, cutout, its all the same. Without a muffler it'll take a lot less cam to sound lopey...even a small 218/224 would lope, as you have said <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
[australian accent] Thats not a lope. THIS is a lope! [/australian accent]
I give up. You two need to go into a small well lit room, show each other your lopes, and be done with it.
LS1's dont lope much, for the most part. They actually work too well. (this is GUD). Take a LT1, throw in a 306 (230/245), put on long tubes and a mufflex....THATs lope. Come to think of it, I did that! Then it started getting old in a hurry. Cam-surge, no power under 3k rpm... We have it good with these new motors. And we dont have much lope. If you are looking for lope, you're gonna slow your car down in most applications.
chris
<strong>
Interesting, what does a stroker motor sound like? *cough* <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Loudmouth, cutout, its all the same. Without a muffler it'll take a lot less cam to sound lopey...even a small 218/224 would lope, as you have said <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
[australian accent] Thats not a lope. THIS is a lope! [/australian accent]
I give up. You two need to go into a small well lit room, show each other your lopes, and be done with it.
LS1's dont lope much, for the most part. They actually work too well. (this is GUD). Take a LT1, throw in a 306 (230/245), put on long tubes and a mufflex....THATs lope. Come to think of it, I did that! Then it started getting old in a hurry. Cam-surge, no power under 3k rpm... We have it good with these new motors. And we dont have much lope. If you are looking for lope, you're gonna slow your car down in most applications.
chris
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. I'd get a new set of pushrods.
I'd keep the compression around 10.8:1 thru 11:1.
I'd seriously consider getting a modded oil pump.
When you do the swap don't use cam lube. Use oil. Just like the manual.
I have some of the tools you would need, like the puller remover and the tool that hold the flywheel in place. Maybe we could work out something, maybe a set of your snazzy decals?
I don't think you could go wrong with the TR, MTI, ARE, or MMS packages.
I'd keep the compression around 10.8:1 thru 11:1.
I'd seriously consider getting a modded oil pump.
When you do the swap don't use cam lube. Use oil. Just like the manual.
I have some of the tools you would need, like the puller remover and the tool that hold the flywheel in place. Maybe we could work out something, maybe a set of your snazzy decals?
I don't think you could go wrong with the TR, MTI, ARE, or MMS packages.
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Mark IXZD 150:
<strong>
Sounds like what jmX said early on about the TR224/114. Hmmmm. Yet another step closer to a final decision. It seems to me that the concensus says (for my desired results) that a cam anywhere between 222-224/114 lsa and I should stay under .560 for reliability. Is .561 close enough if I use dual springs John?
Once again, I see that the Thunder GTP S2 heads with the TR224 looks like my combo. I may end up thanking jmX just like he said I would.
Okay, so what about the valvetrain stuff? With that setup can I use stock pushrods, chain, rockers, lifters, etc.? While I'm at it, should I go with an ARE oil pump (my car is a 2000)?</strong><hr></blockquote>
this all sounds eactly right for a great combo. I would check and see if the head folks can put larger 1.48"+ spring seats and springs. Getting out of those tiny dia. single springs is really nice...
All the rest looks good. I believe in chromemoly pushrods though. The new cam is too tough for the stock pushrods at 6500 rpm, and even if they dont bend, harmonics really start to make things bounce around. For 100$, I'd go for a set of aftermarkets. You may have to go 7.350s anyways.
chris
chris
<strong>
Sounds like what jmX said early on about the TR224/114. Hmmmm. Yet another step closer to a final decision. It seems to me that the concensus says (for my desired results) that a cam anywhere between 222-224/114 lsa and I should stay under .560 for reliability. Is .561 close enough if I use dual springs John?
Once again, I see that the Thunder GTP S2 heads with the TR224 looks like my combo. I may end up thanking jmX just like he said I would.
Okay, so what about the valvetrain stuff? With that setup can I use stock pushrods, chain, rockers, lifters, etc.? While I'm at it, should I go with an ARE oil pump (my car is a 2000)?</strong><hr></blockquote>
this all sounds eactly right for a great combo. I would check and see if the head folks can put larger 1.48"+ spring seats and springs. Getting out of those tiny dia. single springs is really nice...
All the rest looks good. I believe in chromemoly pushrods though. The new cam is too tough for the stock pushrods at 6500 rpm, and even if they dont bend, harmonics really start to make things bounce around. For 100$, I'd go for a set of aftermarkets. You may have to go 7.350s anyways.
chris
chris
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: Shippensburg, PA
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. I know that LS1's don't lope as much as say, an LT1 or 5.0. I'm comparing my LS1 to other LS1's that I have heard. It sounds wild but regardless, my point is that saying a 218/224 has NO lope is misleading. And in regards to the stroker motor comment, I'm relating that to an extremely aggressive setup vs. my mild heads/cam. Not saying a stroker has a distinctive idle. You KNOW there is a cam in there, most people would assume a pretty wild cam if they didn't know otherwise. I have power all throughout the rpm band, there are no dead spots and the car is very driveable, no surging etc.
The neighbors don't like me much <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
The neighbors don't like me much <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. No offense Erin, but your exhaust setup is pretty much straightpipes. So is mine. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
You will probably need 7.350 pushrods Mark. Stockers are 7.400 FWIW.
What catback do you have Mark?
You will probably need 7.350 pushrods Mark. Stockers are 7.400 FWIW.
What catback do you have Mark?
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 317
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From: Shippensburg, PA
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>No offense Erin, but your exhaust setup is pretty much straightpipes. So is mine. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No offense taken <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I am saying that if he wants a bit of lope, he can get that with a 218/224 114 lsa cam with the right setup. Regardless if it is straight pipes or not, if he wants an aggressive sounding cam as well as a cam that isn't going to give him driveability or tuning issues, he could just amplify a less aggressive cam by having the right setup, correct?
<strong>No offense Erin, but your exhaust setup is pretty much straightpipes. So is mine. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No offense taken <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I am saying that if he wants a bit of lope, he can get that with a 218/224 114 lsa cam with the right setup. Regardless if it is straight pipes or not, if he wants an aggressive sounding cam as well as a cam that isn't going to give him driveability or tuning issues, he could just amplify a less aggressive cam by having the right setup, correct?
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by BIGBOS:
<strong>He has the slp quad if I recall, a 114 lsa cam will be hard to hear going through that exhaust...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a specially designed cutout that bypasses the muffler for the most part and routes the exhaust directly to the tips. It's pretty loud now. I've been considering switching to the GMMG chambered and keeping the same CME tips. That should sound pretty damned good! <img src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" border="0">
<strong>He has the slp quad if I recall, a 114 lsa cam will be hard to hear going through that exhaust...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a specially designed cutout that bypasses the muffler for the most part and routes the exhaust directly to the tips. It's pretty loud now. I've been considering switching to the GMMG chambered and keeping the same CME tips. That should sound pretty damned good! <img src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" border="0">