Help me pick which heads/cam to get.
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. How does this list look? What else am I forgetting?
GTP / Thunder Racing STAGE 2 Cylinder Heads, 2.020 / 1.570 Valves, assembled with 1.48+ spring seats dual coil valve springs and titanium retainers.
Thunder Racing Custom Camshaft - 224/224 .561/.561 114 LSA ("1700-6600 RPM Power Band. Excellent mid-range & high RPM power. Requires computer tuning on automatic transmission cars. Due to the fast ramp rate of this camshaft, the use of 1.8 rockers is not recommended.")
Comp Cams Hi-Tech One-Piece Chromemoly pushrods, 7.350" (Short LS1)
LS1 Camshaft & Cylinder Head Swap Gasket Package includes: GM LS1 Cylinder Head Gaskets (left and right side,) GM Cylinder Head Bolts, GM Intake Manifold Gasket Set, GM Exhaust Manifold Gaskets, GM EGR Gaskets, GM Valve Cover Gaskets, GM Vapor Vent Pipe Seals, GM Water Pump Gaskets, GM Front Cover Seal, GM Front Cover Gasket, GM EGR Seals, GM Harmonic Balancer Bolt
ARE LS1 oil pump
GTP / Thunder Racing STAGE 2 Cylinder Heads, 2.020 / 1.570 Valves, assembled with 1.48+ spring seats dual coil valve springs and titanium retainers.
Thunder Racing Custom Camshaft - 224/224 .561/.561 114 LSA ("1700-6600 RPM Power Band. Excellent mid-range & high RPM power. Requires computer tuning on automatic transmission cars. Due to the fast ramp rate of this camshaft, the use of 1.8 rockers is not recommended.")
Comp Cams Hi-Tech One-Piece Chromemoly pushrods, 7.350" (Short LS1)
LS1 Camshaft & Cylinder Head Swap Gasket Package includes: GM LS1 Cylinder Head Gaskets (left and right side,) GM Cylinder Head Bolts, GM Intake Manifold Gasket Set, GM Exhaust Manifold Gaskets, GM EGR Gaskets, GM Valve Cover Gaskets, GM Vapor Vent Pipe Seals, GM Water Pump Gaskets, GM Front Cover Seal, GM Front Cover Gasket, GM EGR Seals, GM Harmonic Balancer Bolt
ARE LS1 oil pump
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Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. MarkLooks about right to me, looks like a good batch of stuff to put on the car. Call thunder racing, talk to "Jeff" (actually spelled Geoff) and ask him any technical questions you have. He's their resident expert, and the one who decided on the Thunder cam specs. Tell Geoff I sent ya <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> He's a good guy, and he knows about the larger diameter springs too (1.43" springs) so you can decide if you want to do that or not.
When you buy a thunder cam, they also run it on a cam doctor before they send it so you know *exactly* what the cam specs out at...for instance, my Thunder 224 was actually a 225/224 with .564/.563 lift. Tiny differences, but good to know anyways.
If you have many miles, you may want to swap lifters too, but thats totally up to you and isnt nessisary. Geoff can help you decide on that too.
WS6Girl (erin?), My point was that for sane people that actually have mufflers a 114lsa will sound a lot less lopey. Heck, my 218/224 with 100% stock exhaust (stock manifolds, cats, etc) sounded like stock...nobody knew I had a cam until I told them. Then when I changed to mac headers and no cats, the lope showed up a bit...if I'd then dropped the muffler (effectivly what you have done), it'd sound mean...it'd just be too unruly and obnoxious for my tastes or my neighbors. Some like it loud tho, and thats cool. "You go girl" <img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" />
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: jmX ]</p>
When you buy a thunder cam, they also run it on a cam doctor before they send it so you know *exactly* what the cam specs out at...for instance, my Thunder 224 was actually a 225/224 with .564/.563 lift. Tiny differences, but good to know anyways.
If you have many miles, you may want to swap lifters too, but thats totally up to you and isnt nessisary. Geoff can help you decide on that too.
WS6Girl (erin?), My point was that for sane people that actually have mufflers a 114lsa will sound a lot less lopey. Heck, my 218/224 with 100% stock exhaust (stock manifolds, cats, etc) sounded like stock...nobody knew I had a cam until I told them. Then when I changed to mac headers and no cats, the lope showed up a bit...if I'd then dropped the muffler (effectivly what you have done), it'd sound mean...it'd just be too unruly and obnoxious for my tastes or my neighbors. Some like it loud tho, and thats cool. "You go girl" <img src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" border="0" alt="[devil]" />
[ January 08, 2002: Message edited by: jmX ]</p>
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. headbolts, head gaskets, a front cover pulley seal, a new pulley bolt...(I know Im forgetting something...).
btw, in some cases, you have to grind a notch in the bottom of each rocker to fit over the retainer tops on the larger springs. No biggie... One of those B&D Wizard/dremmels works great. Takes about 40 minutes to do all 16, but its nice to give your back a break from standing over/under/in the engine bay.
And about that stroker thing... Stroking an engine traditionally makes an engine sound more mild if all else remains the same. If an engine has a crazy lope, I usually assume that its not only cammed but probably close to stock stroke.
As far as exhaust effecting the lope... An exhaust can transmit more of the higher frequencies out that sound like popping/sputtering. If you compare a car with a single or 2 chamber flowmaster to a SLP baffled type, the flowmaster is going to sound far more aggressive (and more like a midget stuck in a barrel with a ball-peen hammer), all else equal. Its not a lope, its exhaust pulses getting all mixed around :-) Theres quite a difference to the well-racing-deafened ear <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
this should be in like 4 different topics <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I still want a topic about that video.
chris (n)
btw, in some cases, you have to grind a notch in the bottom of each rocker to fit over the retainer tops on the larger springs. No biggie... One of those B&D Wizard/dremmels works great. Takes about 40 minutes to do all 16, but its nice to give your back a break from standing over/under/in the engine bay.
And about that stroker thing... Stroking an engine traditionally makes an engine sound more mild if all else remains the same. If an engine has a crazy lope, I usually assume that its not only cammed but probably close to stock stroke.
As far as exhaust effecting the lope... An exhaust can transmit more of the higher frequencies out that sound like popping/sputtering. If you compare a car with a single or 2 chamber flowmaster to a SLP baffled type, the flowmaster is going to sound far more aggressive (and more like a midget stuck in a barrel with a ball-peen hammer), all else equal. Its not a lope, its exhaust pulses getting all mixed around :-) Theres quite a difference to the well-racing-deafened ear <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
this should be in like 4 different topics <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> I still want a topic about that video.
chris (n)
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From: Los Angeles
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Visceral:
<strong>I still want a topic about that video.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dang dude, I think you are the only one that hasnt seen that. I even told you about it the night it came on, sheesh. <img src="graemlins/gr_punch.gif" border="0" alt="[fight]" />
<strong>I still want a topic about that video.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dang dude, I think you are the only one that hasnt seen that. I even told you about it the night it came on, sheesh. <img src="graemlins/gr_punch.gif" border="0" alt="[fight]" />
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Yeah, I think I remember that now. Eesh. I am so out of touch with the world. Its still absolutely totally hilarious.
Has anyone noticed that Michael Jackson looks like he's has some plastic surgery? <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Cute chicks with Trans Ams rule, too.
chris, from under a rock
Has anyone noticed that Michael Jackson looks like he's has some plastic surgery? <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
Cute chicks with Trans Ams rule, too.
chris, from under a rock
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by jmX:
<strong>
If you have many miles, you may want to swap lifters too, but thats totally up to you and isnt nessisary. Geoff can help you decide on that too.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
My car has 12K miles on it.
What's this about grinding the rockers due to the wider springs. Is there an alternative? I'd like to use the stock rockers if possible. The bill is adding up.
<strong>
If you have many miles, you may want to swap lifters too, but thats totally up to you and isnt nessisary. Geoff can help you decide on that too.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
My car has 12K miles on it.
What's this about grinding the rockers due to the wider springs. Is there an alternative? I'd like to use the stock rockers if possible. The bill is adding up.
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From: Los Angeles
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Gotta grind a little bit of the rockers off to clear the larger diamater springs. If you dont wanna do it, just run normal 941 or 918 springs, whichever Geoff prefers for his cam.
I wish I had a pic of what you have to do, its pretty easy. If its the route you decide to do, I'll draw up a diagram of the parts that are removed with the dremmel. For you I'd say just keep stock rockers, stock lifters, and stock diameter springs...less hassle, and its what 95% of the people on here use all the time anyways.
I wish I had a pic of what you have to do, its pretty easy. If its the route you decide to do, I'll draw up a diagram of the parts that are removed with the dremmel. For you I'd say just keep stock rockers, stock lifters, and stock diameter springs...less hassle, and its what 95% of the people on here use all the time anyways.
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. 218/224 is a great cam but is alittle docile in the blip department w/a Dynomax 17227 muffler.
But Erin is runningFLPS,NO CATS,thew a LOUDMOUTH
I bet it sounds real good..Radical,No.
Now for the TR cam on a 112 threw a cuout
NASTY....
I'm going to something on the lines of:
226-234 591-591 113LSA very soon w/Cartek S2 LS6 Heads,Ported LS6 Intake,11.2CR,Dynatech Stepped LT w/3in Y into a 3.5interm. to a 3.5in Cutout an then back to 3in over the axle and to a round race magnum single out,TP4600,4.10's w/ALL the sups. goodies
Should make for an interesting setup
JS
But Erin is runningFLPS,NO CATS,thew a LOUDMOUTH
I bet it sounds real good..Radical,No.
Now for the TR cam on a 112 threw a cuout
NASTY....
I'm going to something on the lines of:
226-234 591-591 113LSA very soon w/Cartek S2 LS6 Heads,Ported LS6 Intake,11.2CR,Dynatech Stepped LT w/3in Y into a 3.5interm. to a 3.5in Cutout an then back to 3in over the axle and to a round race magnum single out,TP4600,4.10's w/ALL the sups. goodies
Should make for an interesting setup
JS
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Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. I am running GTP stage 2 with that baby lift(like Chris Johnson).228/234 @510 lift.With exhaust thru cats I made 400 rwhp and 370 rwtq.I left at idle on street tires and went 12.50 @ 114.I was impressed.Hell I missed forth once and still ran a 12.78 <img src="graemlins/formula.gif" border="0" alt="[Pontiac]" />
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. I'll let someone else explain lift, duration and lobe separation.
Mark, lift will have no effect on lope. Now, if you get some heads that flow 300 cfm at 550 lift that is great. If they flow 304 cfm at 600 lift it's not worth running a 600 lift cam since IMO the gain is not worth the offset in reliability. I run about a 585-590 lift cam with 987 double barrel springs. ARE did not want me to go into the 600s since I drive the car so much.
Now duration and lsa/lobe separation highly affect the lope. A 112 will bring the powerband down maybe 150-200 rpms, but do you really want that kind of torque down low?
I'd lean towards a 224/224//114 personally. A 112 will lope more.
Mark, lift will have no effect on lope. Now, if you get some heads that flow 300 cfm at 550 lift that is great. If they flow 304 cfm at 600 lift it's not worth running a 600 lift cam since IMO the gain is not worth the offset in reliability. I run about a 585-590 lift cam with 987 double barrel springs. ARE did not want me to go into the 600s since I drive the car so much.
Now duration and lsa/lobe separation highly affect the lope. A 112 will bring the powerband down maybe 150-200 rpms, but do you really want that kind of torque down low?
I'd lean towards a 224/224//114 personally. A 112 will lope more.
D(irecto)r Pepper
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Houston Raceway Park...in TEXAS.
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Mark IXZD 150:
<strong>Can you give me a very general laymans version of what the different numbers mean? I'm getting an idea from disussions but now I'm a bit confused. </strong><hr></blockquote>
...Lobe separation is the distance (in camshaft degrees) that the intake and exhaust lobe centerlines (for a given cylinder) are spread apart. Lobe separation is a physical characteristic of the camshaft and cannot be changed without regrinding the lobes. This separation determines where peak torque will occur within the engine’s power range. Tight lobe separations (such as 110°) cause the peak torque to build early in basic RPM range of the cam. The torque will be concentrated, build quickly and peak out. Broader lobe separations (such as 114°) allows the torque to be spread over a broader portion of the basic RPM range and shows better power through the upper RPM.
Low=
106 to 110 on a normal SBC.
110 to 112 on a LS1.
High=
112 to 114 on a normal SBC
113 to 116 on a LS1
Please read my cam page, it has a few discussions towards the bottom of the page that cover all or most of your questions.
Good luck.
John Campbell
http://xs-fx.com/raughammer/cam_info.htm
http://xs-fx.com/raughammer.htm
<strong>Can you give me a very general laymans version of what the different numbers mean? I'm getting an idea from disussions but now I'm a bit confused. </strong><hr></blockquote>
...Lobe separation is the distance (in camshaft degrees) that the intake and exhaust lobe centerlines (for a given cylinder) are spread apart. Lobe separation is a physical characteristic of the camshaft and cannot be changed without regrinding the lobes. This separation determines where peak torque will occur within the engine’s power range. Tight lobe separations (such as 110°) cause the peak torque to build early in basic RPM range of the cam. The torque will be concentrated, build quickly and peak out. Broader lobe separations (such as 114°) allows the torque to be spread over a broader portion of the basic RPM range and shows better power through the upper RPM.
Low=
106 to 110 on a normal SBC.
110 to 112 on a LS1.
High=
112 to 114 on a normal SBC
113 to 116 on a LS1
Please read my cam page, it has a few discussions towards the bottom of the page that cover all or most of your questions.
Good luck.
John Campbell
http://xs-fx.com/raughammer/cam_info.htm
http://xs-fx.com/raughammer.htm
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From: College Station, Tx
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>Anything below 224 doesn't lope hard? Listen for yourself:
T1 cam thru cutout
Umm... I think that definitely does not sound stock. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Tony</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's cause your cutout is open, jeez. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> Through the SLP exhaust it sounded about as loud as a stock car with a hooker or something on it.
Chris
<strong>Anything below 224 doesn't lope hard? Listen for yourself:
T1 cam thru cutout
Umm... I think that definitely does not sound stock. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
Tony</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's cause your cutout is open, jeez. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> Through the SLP exhaust it sounded about as loud as a stock car with a hooker or something on it.
Chris
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From: Friendswood,TX
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Well we have had all this Cam talk what about the Heads? Can ya buy some heads off a stock LS1 and take them to a shop and get them ported and polished? Or should you buy a proven product from a performance shop?
Josh(Still Shoping)
Josh(Still Shoping)
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From: Shippensburg, PA
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by jmX:
<strong>
218/224 on a 114lsa: no lope
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Listen to my car, and I think you would reconsider that statement <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
<strong>
218/224 on a 114lsa: no lope
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Listen to my car, and I think you would reconsider that statement <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">
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From: Los Angeles
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by WS6 TransAm Girl:
<strong>
Listen to my car, and I think you would reconsider that statement <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, its all relative I guess and my perspective has been skewed. Once you've heard *LOPE*, then a 218/224 114 sounds near stock. Then again, I've only heard it through my B&B muffler.....dunno how you guys (or girls) can stand going through a cutout. I consider my car undrivable on the street with the cutout open.
<strong>
Listen to my car, and I think you would reconsider that statement <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, its all relative I guess and my perspective has been skewed. Once you've heard *LOPE*, then a 218/224 114 sounds near stock. Then again, I've only heard it through my B&B muffler.....dunno how you guys (or girls) can stand going through a cutout. I consider my car undrivable on the street with the cutout open.
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From: Shippensburg, PA
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by jmX:
<strong>
Well, its all relative I guess and my perspective has been skewed. Once you've heard *LOPE*, then a 218/224 114 sounds near stock. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I have FLPs with ORP's and the Loudmouth... believe what you will but it sounds like a stroker motor. I don't think anyone would believe that I have a 218/224 cam in the car. I have heard *lope*... I don't live under a rock, I am at the track quite often and I know what *lope* is. And with the right setup, this cam just sounds MEAN.
<strong>
Well, its all relative I guess and my perspective has been skewed. Once you've heard *LOPE*, then a 218/224 114 sounds near stock. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I have FLPs with ORP's and the Loudmouth... believe what you will but it sounds like a stroker motor. I don't think anyone would believe that I have a 218/224 cam in the car. I have heard *lope*... I don't live under a rock, I am at the track quite often and I know what *lope* is. And with the right setup, this cam just sounds MEAN.
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. [quote]Originally posted by Pro Stock John:
<strong>Mark will you be gettin drag radials?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. Remember, my car is primarily street. I may get some extra wheels and some drag tires sometime in the future so I can have some fun at the strip on occaision.
My rear wheels are 17x11 with 315/35/17 BFG g-force KDs. My goal is a wicked street/show car. I'm hoping these tires will suffice. Somebody please tell me that 420 rwhp isn't too much for my car on street tires.
Here's my car:
<strong>Mark will you be gettin drag radials?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. Remember, my car is primarily street. I may get some extra wheels and some drag tires sometime in the future so I can have some fun at the strip on occaision.
My rear wheels are 17x11 with 315/35/17 BFG g-force KDs. My goal is a wicked street/show car. I'm hoping these tires will suffice. Somebody please tell me that 420 rwhp isn't too much for my car on street tires.
Here's my car:
Re: Help me pick which heads/cam to get. Just to clarify... with this cam: 224/224/.561/.561
A 112 lsa cam makes power lower in the range and would be more likely to create traction problems (street tires) whereas a 114 lsa would make the power a bit higher up which will make it easier to hook up? Is that correct?
What are the rpm differences where the power comes in?
Which one has the broader power/torque curve, the 114?
Either one will idle fine with an M6?
A 112 lsa cam makes power lower in the range and would be more likely to create traction problems (street tires) whereas a 114 lsa would make the power a bit higher up which will make it easier to hook up? Is that correct?
What are the rpm differences where the power comes in?
Which one has the broader power/torque curve, the 114?
Either one will idle fine with an M6?