MS4 110 Lsa First start up
03-09-2007, 11:42 AM
#82
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by KrisXpc
I agree its anoying to be insulted for knowledge your putting out, But calling tufass out wasn't really needed man.
We all had to learn at some point in time.. for most of us budget builders the only way we can learn is to ask.
Im still giving TSP a chance here to get in touch with me. Ive heard nothing but top notch customer service. We all get a little busy.
Either way. I Want to see TSP put this to rest. Even if its going to sting..
We all had to learn at some point in time.. for most of us budget builders the only way we can learn is to ask.
Im still giving TSP a chance here to get in touch with me. Ive heard nothing but top notch customer service. We all get a little busy.
Either way. I Want to see TSP put this to rest. Even if its going to sting..
I'm also running one of their prototype heads, from the days they outsourced their work.
I've even had some issues but they stood by their product and took care of things.
Sorry about tuffass, but he called me out on just hear say, the guy doesn't even know that LSx motor lifters are not in an open valley like SBC/BBC.
One thing you have to understand, like you can doubt my recommendations, do not take dealers word as gospel. Research and make up your own mind.
Take Thunder for exemple and their T-Rex. It says a wise thing on their site, PTV is recommended to be measured with that cam.
When a cam is tight on PTV, if it clears one, that does't mean it clears all. There are variations in motors from batch to batch and year to year. Take piston deck height measurements for exemple. I've seen .005 out and as much as .008 out. Some earlier models use graphite gaskets and some use MLS etc....
So once you go into red zone territory, I advice to measure and re-measure, so you might avoid painful results.
I did not insult anyone and I took a few potshots, but in life if you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.
...O....and get a bigger cam ya puss....wheres the loop?....J/K man 
03-09-2007, 01:22 PM
#84
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
and tuffass, you are judging me after posting in this:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/671672-installing-cam-dot-dot.html
Get real
Some poeple really need to grow up, at your age i would get pissed, now i find all this ammusing
I just hope some readers can sift through and take the warning seriously.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/671672-installing-cam-dot-dot.html
Get real
Some poeple really need to grow up, at your age i would get pissed, now i find all this ammusing
I just hope some readers can sift through and take the warning seriously.What.. I think you must have taken something I said the wrong way. I'm not judging anyone abot any post. This is a "Discussion forum" People are going to have diff opinions. I'm not even really sure what your talking about though.
03-09-2007, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
Sorry about tuffass, but he called me out on just hear say, the guy doesn't even know that LSx motor lifters are not in an open valley like SBC/BBC.
I think your firing back because i made a comment about not likeing to read threads where there is a bunch of conflicting info because it makes me start wto wonder if i'm going to screw something up. Whats so wrong with that? I never actually directed anything to you or anyone else for that matter.
but about the lifters, I've never taken my motor apart or any other LS1's but I have worked on a few 350's and thus the reason for worry.
I didnt realize I was going to be riduculed for asking technical question seing that not many people on this site or any other car forum, are Experts!
03-09-2007, 01:35 PM
#86
Originally Posted by tuffass
What.. I think you must have taken something I said the wrong way. I'm not judging anyone abot any post. This is a "Discussion forum" People are going to have diff opinions. I'm not even really sure what your talking about though.
Its all good man, just let it go.. Beside the topic is trying to get ahold of Tsp to figure this out...
03-09-2007, 01:39 PM
#87
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Originally Posted by KrisXpc
Its all good man, just let it go.. Beside the topic is trying to get ahold of Tsp to figure this out...
03-09-2007, 01:47 PM
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Update for those wondering still: Called again no luck.
Jon@TSP changed his sig.
***IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING TROUBLE GETTING IN TOUCH WITH US ON THE PHONE, PLEASE PM ME WITH YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND I WILL TRY TO RETURN YOUR CALL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!***
Seems they are having phone problems.
It used to say if you wanted a direct answer to call them, so now for anyone needing information to pm them.
PM Sent.
-J
Jon@TSP changed his sig.
***IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING TROUBLE GETTING IN TOUCH WITH US ON THE PHONE, PLEASE PM ME WITH YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND I WILL TRY TO RETURN YOUR CALL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!***
Seems they are having phone problems.
It used to say if you wanted a direct answer to call them, so now for anyone needing information to pm them.
PM Sent.
-J
Last edited by XxNaSDaQxX; 03-09-2007 at 01:55 PM.
03-09-2007, 01:57 PM
#89
Originally Posted by XxNaSDaQxX
Update for those wondering still: Called again no luck.
Jon@TSP changed his sig.
***IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING TROUBLE GETTING IN TOUCH WITH US ON THE PHONE, PLEASE PM ME WITH YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND I WILL TRY TO RETURN YOUR CALL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!***
Seems they are having phone problems.
It used to say if you wanted a direct answer to call them, so now for anyone needing information to pm them.
PM Sent.
-J
Jon@TSP changed his sig.
***IF YOU ARE EXPERIENCING TROUBLE GETTING IN TOUCH WITH US ON THE PHONE, PLEASE PM ME WITH YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND I WILL TRY TO RETURN YOUR CALL AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!!***
Seems they are having phone problems.
It used to say if you wanted a direct answer to call them, so now for anyone needing information to pm them.
PM Sent.
-J
Pm Sent
03-09-2007, 02:53 PM
#90
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Hey Kris,
Good luck with the setup. I just got off the phone with Harrison and said he's going to be taking a look at the tune. Thats a huge cam. Why not just go for something normal? LOL. This P2V stuff would be stressing me out.
As for Lift affecting P2V, for most applications it will not. The reason is simple. Lets take a look at the valve events for a 240/240-110 cam. This cam has 240* of duration on the intake, and we'll say it has a 110* intake centerline (ICL) or therefore 0* of advance. The valve events @ .050'' (which we are using) would look like this for the intake.
The intake valve is going to open 10* before the piston reaches top dead center (btdc). Then, the valve is going to shut 50* after bottom dead center (abdc). So, lets put this together.
The piston is traveling up the bore and the intake valve opens just 10* before the piston has reached the top. The valve will now remain open for 240* of crankshaft rotation. The piston travels down the bore (180*) and then begins its travel once again, up the bore. 50* after the piston has begun traveling upwards the intake valve shuts. Now we can put this all together too. 10* before the top, plus 180* down the bore, plus 50* upwards is equal to 240*.
With a symmetrical lobe (equal on both sides), if you divide 240* by 2, you can find out where peak lift is met. In this instance, 240* / 2 = 120. 120* - 10* BTDC = 110. The valve reaches peak lift after the piston has traveled 110* of crankshaft rotation down the bore.
110* out of 180 is pretty darn far down the bore. Hopefully it can now be understood why P2V is hardly affected by peak lift.
I created all of this in my head while typing, so if there are any mistakes, feel free to bust my *****. Make me feel dumb. It's all learning.
Good luck with the setup. I just got off the phone with Harrison and said he's going to be taking a look at the tune. Thats a huge cam. Why not just go for something normal? LOL. This P2V stuff would be stressing me out.
As for Lift affecting P2V, for most applications it will not. The reason is simple. Lets take a look at the valve events for a 240/240-110 cam. This cam has 240* of duration on the intake, and we'll say it has a 110* intake centerline (ICL) or therefore 0* of advance. The valve events @ .050'' (which we are using) would look like this for the intake.
The intake valve is going to open 10* before the piston reaches top dead center (btdc). Then, the valve is going to shut 50* after bottom dead center (abdc). So, lets put this together.
The piston is traveling up the bore and the intake valve opens just 10* before the piston has reached the top. The valve will now remain open for 240* of crankshaft rotation. The piston travels down the bore (180*) and then begins its travel once again, up the bore. 50* after the piston has begun traveling upwards the intake valve shuts. Now we can put this all together too. 10* before the top, plus 180* down the bore, plus 50* upwards is equal to 240*.
With a symmetrical lobe (equal on both sides), if you divide 240* by 2, you can find out where peak lift is met. In this instance, 240* / 2 = 120. 120* - 10* BTDC = 110. The valve reaches peak lift after the piston has traveled 110* of crankshaft rotation down the bore.
110* out of 180 is pretty darn far down the bore. Hopefully it can now be understood why P2V is hardly affected by peak lift.
I created all of this in my head while typing, so if there are any mistakes, feel free to bust my *****. Make me feel dumb. It's all learning.
03-09-2007, 03:01 PM
#91
Originally Posted by KrisXpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl0iLy2j7n0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEe1PBAcgzI
Got a little giddy and wanted to get out of the car to check valvetrain noise..
oil psi went to 40 right away.
This is on the stock tune... idle is around 1700, had to disconnect the pcv to get a decent idle.
Ill post the raw sound from the rear some time this week after a small tune.
car will not be 100% tuned untill after a 98 - 02 pcm change over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEe1PBAcgzI
Got a little giddy and wanted to get out of the car to check valvetrain noise..
oil psi went to 40 right away.
This is on the stock tune... idle is around 1700, had to disconnect the pcv to get a decent idle.
Ill post the raw sound from the rear some time this week after a small tune.
car will not be 100% tuned untill after a 98 - 02 pcm change over.
I swear to God, the lady at work across from me got pissy and said it sounded gross.
EDIT: When i told her it was a car, she asked, "Is it supposed to sound like that." I told her no.
I was laughing my *** off at the super raunchy chop, so i think she didn't even believe me that it was a car.
Last edited by Sharpe; 03-09-2007 at 03:07 PM.
03-09-2007, 04:44 PM
#92
Originally Posted by Sport Side
Hey Kris,
Good luck with the setup. I just got off the phone with Harrison and said he's going to be taking a look at the tune. Thats a huge cam. Why not just go for something normal? LOL. .
Good luck with the setup. I just got off the phone with Harrison and said he's going to be taking a look at the tune. Thats a huge cam. Why not just go for something normal? LOL. .
03-09-2007, 11:40 PM
#93
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by tuffass
You can direct anything you want to say directly to me. I never said i was a mechanic and i think your getting a little overboard with something I said.
I think your firing back because i made a comment about not likeing to read threads where there is a bunch of conflicting info because it makes me start wto wonder if i'm going to screw something up. Whats so wrong with that? I never actually directed anything to you or anyone else for that matter. but about the lifters, I've never taken my motor apart or any other LS1's but I have worked on a few 350's and thus the reason for worry.
I didnt realize I was going to be riduculed for asking technical question seing that not many people on this site or any other car forum, are Experts!
I think your firing back because i made a comment about not likeing to read threads where there is a bunch of conflicting info because it makes me start wto wonder if i'm going to screw something up. Whats so wrong with that? I never actually directed anything to you or anyone else for that matter. but about the lifters, I've never taken my motor apart or any other LS1's but I have worked on a few 350's and thus the reason for worry.
I didnt realize I was going to be riduculed for asking technical question seing that not many people on this site or any other car forum, are Experts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4U2BNVS
Just so you know I called TSP and i have the same set-up and they say it will work fine as its less than .005 difference between the MS4 on a 110LSA and A 111 LSA so quite feeding us full of **** unless you have actually talked to TSP like I have.
Originally Posted by 4U2BNVS
Just so you know I called TSP and i have the same set-up and they say it will work fine as its less than .005 difference between the MS4 on a 110LSA and A 111 LSA so quite feeding us full of **** unless you have actually talked to TSP like I have.
lol.. well said.. I hate these treads because I start thinking I'm about to **** somthing up!
So in any case, I could ignore this whole thing, but being who I am, If I'm sure I'm right about an issue, I have a hard time dropping it.
In any case this is turning into a pissup match and it shouldn't, there is some good info in this thread.
Let us call a truce on name calling and refocus on the tech side.
It would be nice if TSP would confirm the exact measured tolerances they have experienced so poeple can get a clear picture and make the right decision. This is a great cam, but a little extra work like measuring PTV would be good advice so the average power hungry fans understand what they are getting into.
03-09-2007, 11:53 PM
#94
Originally Posted by Sport Side
Hey Kris,
Good luck with the setup. I just got off the phone with Harrison and said he's going to be taking a look at the tune. Thats a huge cam. Why not just go for something normal? LOL. This P2V stuff would be stressing me out.
As for Lift affecting P2V, for most applications it will not. The reason is simple. Lets take a look at the valve events for a 240/240-110 cam. This cam has 240* of duration on the intake, and we'll say it has a 110* intake centerline (ICL) or therefore 0* of advance. The valve events @ .050'' (which we are using) would look like this for the intake.
The intake valve is going to open 10* before the piston reaches top dead center (btdc). Then, the valve is going to shut 50* after bottom dead center (abdc). So, lets put this together.
The piston is traveling up the bore and the intake valve opens just 10* before the piston has reached the top. The valve will now remain open for 240* of crankshaft rotation. The piston travels down the bore (180*) and then begins its travel once again, up the bore. 50* after the piston has begun traveling upwards the intake valve shuts. Now we can put this all together too. 10* before the top, plus 180* down the bore, plus 50* upwards is equal to 240*.
With a symmetrical lobe (equal on both sides), if you divide 240* by 2, you can find out where peak lift is met. In this instance, 240* / 2 = 120. 120* - 10* BTDC = 110. The valve reaches peak lift after the piston has traveled 110* of crankshaft rotation down the bore.
110* out of 180 is pretty darn far down the bore. Hopefully it can now be understood why P2V is hardly affected by peak lift.
I created all of this in my head while typing, so if there are any mistakes, feel free to bust my *****. Make me feel dumb. It's all learning.
Good luck with the setup. I just got off the phone with Harrison and said he's going to be taking a look at the tune. Thats a huge cam. Why not just go for something normal? LOL. This P2V stuff would be stressing me out.
As for Lift affecting P2V, for most applications it will not. The reason is simple. Lets take a look at the valve events for a 240/240-110 cam. This cam has 240* of duration on the intake, and we'll say it has a 110* intake centerline (ICL) or therefore 0* of advance. The valve events @ .050'' (which we are using) would look like this for the intake.
The intake valve is going to open 10* before the piston reaches top dead center (btdc). Then, the valve is going to shut 50* after bottom dead center (abdc). So, lets put this together.
The piston is traveling up the bore and the intake valve opens just 10* before the piston has reached the top. The valve will now remain open for 240* of crankshaft rotation. The piston travels down the bore (180*) and then begins its travel once again, up the bore. 50* after the piston has begun traveling upwards the intake valve shuts. Now we can put this all together too. 10* before the top, plus 180* down the bore, plus 50* upwards is equal to 240*.
With a symmetrical lobe (equal on both sides), if you divide 240* by 2, you can find out where peak lift is met. In this instance, 240* / 2 = 120. 120* - 10* BTDC = 110. The valve reaches peak lift after the piston has traveled 110* of crankshaft rotation down the bore.
110* out of 180 is pretty darn far down the bore. Hopefully it can now be understood why P2V is hardly affected by peak lift.
I created all of this in my head while typing, so if there are any mistakes, feel free to bust my *****. Make me feel dumb. It's all learning.
Your right, and this is putting alot of useless stress on me...
After all this Im probobly just going to see what I can do to trade the cam. Or bite the bullet and buy a new one and put this one up for sale..
Next MS4 will be the 112
03-10-2007, 12:06 AM
#95
TECH Senior Member
Originally Posted by KrisXpc
Your right, and this is putting alot of useless stress on me...
After all this Im probobly just going to see what I can do to trade the cam. Or bite the bullet and buy a new one and put this one up for sale..
Next MS4 will be the 112
After all this Im probobly just going to see what I can do to trade the cam. Or bite the bullet and buy a new one and put this one up for sale..
Next MS4 will be the 112
There is another solution, but not my favorite, put on a .060 gasket on. But that is if the .006 difference between gaskets gets you in a safer zone.
03-10-2007, 03:46 PM
#96
Originally Posted by PREDATOR-Z
It is cheaper to remove the heads, flycut a little, then bolt it back up. More work but cheaper. Bolts and gasket, some fluids. That 110 is a good cam.
There is another solution, but not my favorite, put on a .060 gasket on. But that is if the .006 difference between gaskets gets you in a safer zone.
There is another solution, but not my favorite, put on a .060 gasket on. But that is if the .006 difference between gaskets gets you in a safer zone.
Rent the tool or pay someone to do it? Any advice on best tool to use? Or maybe a right up?
03-10-2007, 04:29 PM
#97
Originally Posted by Brian @ Texas Speed & Performance
No there is no flycutting required with the MS4 and stock heads.
You think we took specs from EDC to make our MS4? What a joke! That is hands-down the dumbest thing on the internet any of us at the shop had read yet. We don't need to "rip off" any one else(especially Ed) to come up with cams that make power. We put a lot of time and R&D into our cams. Next time you decide to post in one of our threads...just keep your mouth shut. It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. We have DYNO-PROVEN results from the engine dyno that show our MS4 works. This is how we test cams. Cam theory only gets you so far. Things are very different when you actually dyno what you push. We don't just pick some random specs and hope for the best. We try different setups to see what works best before we release a new camshaft. Can you show me any engine dyno results from EDC showing the power differences? We'll be back on the engine dyno next week testing one of our stroker packages with many different camshafts again. We actually KNOW what our cams are doing when we recommend them. With all of the cam theory going on these days, everyone is an expert. We back up what we sell and recommend to our customers. Anyone can sit on their computer at their house in their bunny slippers recommending cams based on what they THINK will work. We'll recommend what we KNOW works because it's already been proven.
Brian
Texas Speed & Performance
You think we took specs from EDC to make our MS4? What a joke! That is hands-down the dumbest thing on the internet any of us at the shop had read yet. We don't need to "rip off" any one else(especially Ed) to come up with cams that make power. We put a lot of time and R&D into our cams. Next time you decide to post in one of our threads...just keep your mouth shut. It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. We have DYNO-PROVEN results from the engine dyno that show our MS4 works. This is how we test cams. Cam theory only gets you so far. Things are very different when you actually dyno what you push. We don't just pick some random specs and hope for the best. We try different setups to see what works best before we release a new camshaft. Can you show me any engine dyno results from EDC showing the power differences? We'll be back on the engine dyno next week testing one of our stroker packages with many different camshafts again. We actually KNOW what our cams are doing when we recommend them. With all of the cam theory going on these days, everyone is an expert. We back up what we sell and recommend to our customers. Anyone can sit on their computer at their house in their bunny slippers recommending cams based on what they THINK will work. We'll recommend what we KNOW works because it's already been proven.
Brian
Texas Speed & Performance
Wow..
Originally posted by Black02SS
KrisXpc... bad news sir.
I just got in touch with TSP.
Tolerences for the MS4 with a 111 LSA are as follows:
.060 on intake and .065 on Exhaust.
Tolerences for the MS4 on a 110 LSA are as follows:
.031 on intake and .036 on exhaust.
I told him it was going in your setup and there was nothing but dead silence on the phone followed by a quick, "Thaaaaat's not good."
I'm telling you, you're skating on thin ice...big time.
Just to put things in perspective, rod bolts can stretch .030 easy.
That cam in your motor = TIME BOMB.
Not being a smart ***, I just don't want to see a fellow f-body owner's motor be destroyed.
KrisXpc... bad news sir.
I just got in touch with TSP.
Tolerences for the MS4 with a 111 LSA are as follows:
.060 on intake and .065 on Exhaust.
Tolerences for the MS4 on a 110 LSA are as follows:
.031 on intake and .036 on exhaust.
I told him it was going in your setup and there was nothing but dead silence on the phone followed by a quick, "Thaaaaat's not good."
I'm telling you, you're skating on thin ice...big time.
Just to put things in perspective, rod bolts can stretch .030 easy.
That cam in your motor = TIME BOMB.
Not being a smart ***, I just don't want to see a fellow f-body owner's motor be destroyed.
Originally Posted by 4U2BNVS
Just so you know I called TSP and i have the same set-up and they say it will work fine as its less than .005 difference between the MS4 on a 110LSA and A 111 LSA so quite feeding us full of **** unless you have actually talked to TSP like I have.
I think I need some booze..
03-10-2007, 04:47 PM
#98
the idle sounds horrible. my friend has a 234/242 110 lsa cam in a 346 that idles ~850 with no problem. it sounds like an untuned 224 cam to me. black02ss is to thank for that feat - props again.
on a side note - 242 is too much exhaust duration to safely run with a 110 lsa cam and stock ptv. my forecast is that the car will idle fine and drive ok, but attempted wot runs will cost you. everything is cool until you stress the parts, very little movement is all that's needed.
on a side note - 242 is too much exhaust duration to safely run with a 110 lsa cam and stock ptv. my forecast is that the car will idle fine and drive ok, but attempted wot runs will cost you. everything is cool until you stress the parts, very little movement is all that's needed.
03-10-2007, 04:50 PM
#99
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It seems like too many people are chiming in without actually knowing what's going on. I'm going to side with Predator on this one and say that Black02SS actually did get in touch with TSP. Not calling 4u2bnvs out, but it looks like he was the one who was feeding people ****.
03-10-2007, 05:19 PM
#100
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"Black02SS" Numbers on the difference between LSA seem more real then that of what 4U2BNVS had listed. I would believe this guy hands down.
KrisXpc: Most shops will not flycut the pistons without you going threw all the hassel of getting the pistons out of the motor. Call around and see if you can find someone to do it for you (meanning while the pistons are still in the motor). Or if you want to do it yourself, flycut .100 whie you have the heads off and then run the thinnest gasket you can before you hit the .080 intake/.100 exhaust PTVC mark. That way you can maximixe your quench area which will aid in preventing detonation and will cause a stronger combustion too.
I'm also looking for the other thread which also seemes to have been moved. It speaks about the ms4 cam and different heads which and what will not work and what needs to be done.
"Edit: Found one of the links.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/658713-head-go-my-ms4.html
"
Link to the two quotes below:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/657992-ms4-cam-question.html
Thread Starter:
Response:
Glad your doing more searching and getting info. BTW TSP response was to stock heads. Also that reply was for a LS2 motor with an MS4 cam which wasnt listed on what LSA. I believe he said later in another thread he went 111LSA +1.
BTW still no response from TSP. Called and Pm'ed.
-J
KrisXpc: Most shops will not flycut the pistons without you going threw all the hassel of getting the pistons out of the motor. Call around and see if you can find someone to do it for you (meanning while the pistons are still in the motor). Or if you want to do it yourself, flycut .100 whie you have the heads off and then run the thinnest gasket you can before you hit the .080 intake/.100 exhaust PTVC mark. That way you can maximixe your quench area which will aid in preventing detonation and will cause a stronger combustion too.
I'm also looking for the other thread which also seemes to have been moved. It speaks about the ms4 cam and different heads which and what will not work and what needs to be done.
"Edit: Found one of the links.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/658713-head-go-my-ms4.html
Originally Posted by Jon@Texas-Speed
The Stg.1 LS6 heads will clear fine. The Stg. 2.5 LS6 heads will require flycutting to clear the stock pistons. Both setups work well and produce great numbers time and time again!
Link to the two quotes below:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/657992-ms4-cam-question.html
Thread Starter:
Originally Posted by 765joey
Hey guys. I think I decided on the MS4 cam. Would I need to fly cut my pistons? It's going into a LS2 with stock heads. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
Originally Posted by Brian @ Texas Speed & Performance
No there is no flycutting required with the MS4 and stock heads.
BTW still no response from TSP. Called and Pm'ed.
-J
Last edited by XxNaSDaQxX; 03-10-2007 at 05:58 PM.