AllCammedUp

I've been curious about this for a while... can you safely run just the Cloyes Hex-adjust cam gear and retain the stock crank sprocket and be ok? My set of Cloyes gears/chain came with a new cam gear, and a crank sprocket and oil drive gear that are separate, along with a RENOLDS chain.

I don't have the tools indicated in the service manul to do the crank sprocket removal, but since I do have the ability to swap the cam gear so easily, I was curious if I could just install the cam gear and gain the advantage of the tighter chain setup with the JWIS chain and run ok with the stock crank sprocket.

Has anyone successfully done this? Thanks!!

<small>[ October 27, 2002, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: AllCammedUp ]</small>

Kevin

iTrader: (1)

"can you safely run just the Cloyes Hex-adjust cam gear and retain the stock crank sprocket and be ok?"

Yes you can.

Kevin

myss2638

iTrader: (10)

Not sure on you original question...

but as far as removing the cam sprocket.I removed my old timing crank sprocket using the 3 jaw puller I used to remove the balancer. To install the new sprocket just slid it over the crank, then but the old crank sprocket up to that and put wooden block on the end of the old sprocket and tap it on with a mallet. This was on a c5, I am not sure about the amount of clearance on the fbod to do i tthis way.

Old SStroker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by AllCammedUp:
[QB]I've been curious about this for a while... can you safely run just the Cloyes Hex-adjust cam gear and retain the stock crank sprocket and be ok?
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I say don't do it. Sprockets tend to wear to fit the chain they run with. You risk having more slop (backlash) in the new setup than the old if you don't change both sprockets.

Beg, borrow or steal the tools necessary to change the crank sprocket.

My $.02

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Old SStroker:
I say don't do it. Sprockets tend to wear to fit the chain they run with. You risk having more slop (backlash) in the new setup than the old if you don't change both sprockets.

Beg, borrow or steal the tools necessary to change the crank sprocket.

My $.02</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What he said.

Probably best to keep it either all old stuff that has developed it's ware pattern together or all new stuff so it can develop it's ware pattern with the other new parts.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

He's running a new JWIS chain though so wouldn't both sprockets have to wear to the new chain as well thus cancelling out the effects suggested above?

joghotrod

If you do change it, make sure you don't just hammer it on because, you could damage the thrust bearing. Jimmy

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NastyC5:
<strong>He's running a new JWIS chain though so wouldn't both sprockets have to wear to the new chain as well thus cancelling out the effects suggested above?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe or maybe not and that's where the potential problem lies.

The old crank sprocket has X amount of ware on it from the old timing chain.

The new cam sproket hasn't gotten any ware on it.

The new chain hasn't gotten any ware on it.

The wear pattern between the new chain and the new cam sproket is new to new. So they may create their own ware pattern and be ok.

The wear pattern between the new chain and the old crank sproket is new to old/worn. The crank sproket has a wear pattern established by the old chain. The new chain may have a differnt wear pattern. The old crank sproket has wear on it's teeth and the new cam sproket doesn't. They may fit the chain a little differently due to the different wear this could create a bad ware pattern or more backlash.

I know I've not explained that very well, but I've asked two people what work with this stuff and they both said it's best to keep it all new or all old. One is a SAM grad. Maybe someone else can chime in...

Old SStroker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 99 Black Bird T/A:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by NastyC5:
<strong>He's running a new JWIS chain though so wouldn't both sprockets have to wear to the new chain as well thus cancelling out the effects suggested above?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe or maybe not and that's where the potential problem lies.

The old crank sprocket has X amount of ware on it from the old timing chain.

The new cam sproket hasn't gotten any ware on it.

The new chain hasn't gotten any ware on it.

The wear pattern between the new chain and the new cam sproket is new to new. So they may create their own ware pattern and be ok.

The wear pattern between the new chain and the old crank sproket is new to old/worn. The crank sproket has a wear pattern established by the old chain. The new chain may have a differnt wear pattern. The old crank sproket has wear on it's teeth and the new cam sproket doesn't. They may fit the chain a little differently due to the different wear this could create a bad ware pattern or more backlash.

I know I've not explained that very well, but I've asked two people what work with this stuff and they both said it's best to keep it all new or all old. One is a SAM grad. Maybe someone else can chime in...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You explained it very well.

When sprockets wear the teeth get thinner or narrower and slightly smaller as the chain rollers cut the teeth deeper. Using old/new you have two sprockers which aren't really similar, and the old one will continue to wear, probably faster because it mates with a chain with slightly bigger (unworn) rollers.

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

I wouldn't suggest it.Juat recieved a double rollor chain/sprocket setup From the sponsor SPDC for $85.I think of it as cheap insurance.

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Are we getting too nit picky on this wear minutiae? All of the tuners, etc recommend replacing your stock chain with at least a new JWIS or new stock chain. I have never heard of them recommending the replacement of the sprockets on just a chain swap, either. I don't recall reading in the Helms manual that you should replace the crank and cam sprockets if you replace the timing chain.

The wear theories posted above are totally logical however will any of us (especially AllCammedUp) really see any cons to actually doing this? Will the sprockets wear so much that the chain "slops" off? I'm just trying to get a feel for the reality of these minute facts that we are presented with in these situations.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

NastyC5,

I'm faced with this same question, next week is my heads and cam install date. I know the IDEAL thing to do is both gears and the chain.

Several of my supporting bolt on's for my heads and cam package, had major issues which ate up my extra cash I'd planned to use for a whole new timing set.

I too wonder if it's safer to use:
a new chain and old gears

or

old chain and old gears

I know neither of these is a good as all new stuff.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Slowhawk:
<strong>I wouldn't suggest it.Juat recieved a double rollor chain/sprocket setup From the sponsor SPDC for $85.I think of it as cheap insurance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can this be installed with the engine still in the car? What's involved besides pulling the oil pump?

Thanks

AllCammedUp

Thanks everyone for all of the replies. I went ahead and replaced the old crank sprocket with the new one from Cloyes. It took me a little bit to find a puller w/ enough reach to get the old sprocket off the nose of the crank. I feel better about doing it that way, even though it cost me some time on the install. It was worth it, I'm sure. Just make sure to look at the old crank sprocket, and make sure the cloyes matches ok, and that you have the timing marks lined up right and that the oil drive gear faces the right way. If you look inside the old oil drive gear, there is a thick 'stripe' and a thin 'stripe' machined inside the gear. I made sure my new gear was oriented as such.

Here's some things I learned while doing this, hopefully it'll help others out who decide to do the mod w/o the GM/Kent-Moore tools:

Once you pop the old one off don't discard it, you'll actually use it to help put the new one on.

The new sprocket and oil drive gear will only fit about 1/2 of the way up the snout of the crank before it hangs. Take the old crank sprocket, and turn it over to where the oil drive gear faces on both sprockets meet (act like you are going to put the old one on backwards) and slip it over what little crank snout you have sticking out. From there, take a small piece of wood and a rubber mallet, and line the wood up against the face of the old crank sprocket and tap the old and new sprockets up the snout of the crank. Don't tap too much or too hard. Just enough to go up the snout until it hangs again. Once it 'hangs' again, set the hammer and the wood down. Get your old crank bolt and thread it into the crank snout. If you've gone enough w/ the hammer, you should have *just enough* thread available on the bolt to get a bit into the crank snout.

EVER SO GENTLY tighten the crank bolt. The big flange of the crank bolt will push on the old crank sprocket, which in turn, will push on the new crank sprocket and oil drive gear. Keep tightening until the new crank sprocket is flush against the flange in the crank. Once you are there, the bolt will simply stop tightening. Back it out, remove the old crank sprocket, and you are done (with that job, anyways)!

Hope this helps someone else out. It worked for me. I just took my time, and it went well.

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Bink

I'll be doing this soon . Thanks for the tips. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

Overboosted

iTrader: (14)

Bringing this one back from the dead. Can I use the stock gear? It has very few miles on it, so I am not concerned about the wear issue.

I just want to run the cam gear, but I am unsure if there would be any problems doing this.

Overboosted

iTrader: (14)

Nevermind...... this is directly from Cloye's

"The set is matched and the lower gear is larger in dia. to tighten up the loose factory chain

So if you use the top gear only the chain will be loose and not keep correct timing as set was designed to do."

Camaro_Zach

iTrader: (19)

Man THANK YOU for finding a solution and then coming back and posting it. I hate when people dont post the solution! Ok, well I guess I know what I have to do then!

Thanks again for posting your findings!