what is the benefit of a high lift cam?
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what is the benefit of a high lift cam?
i am going with the f-14 cam , and there is a high lift version of this cam also that i think they are going to put in my car .......... what would be the benefit of this cam verses the regular F-14 and how long will springs last with the high lift version????
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id imagine that simply put it allows more air and fuel to come into the cylinder at a better rate.
think of it like blowing through a straw 1 cm in diameter and then blowing into one 1 inch in diameter.
this would obviously yield more horsepower at the expense of springs wearing down at a quicker rate. The bigger lift also will probably be harder to drive around tune without a great tune because of how radical the F-14 numbers are compared to the 346 CI of the LS1.
think of it like blowing through a straw 1 cm in diameter and then blowing into one 1 inch in diameter.
this would obviously yield more horsepower at the expense of springs wearing down at a quicker rate. The bigger lift also will probably be harder to drive around tune without a great tune because of how radical the F-14 numbers are compared to the 346 CI of the LS1.
#6
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id imagine that simply put it allows more air and fuel to come into the cylinder at a better rate.
think of it like blowing through a straw 1 cm in diameter and then blowing into one 1 inch in diameter.
this would obviously yield more horsepower at the expense of springs wearing down at a quicker rate. The bigger lift also will probably be harder to drive around tune without a great tune because of how radical the F-14 numbers are compared to the 346 CI of the LS1.
think of it like blowing through a straw 1 cm in diameter and then blowing into one 1 inch in diameter.
this would obviously yield more horsepower at the expense of springs wearing down at a quicker rate. The bigger lift also will probably be harder to drive around tune without a great tune because of how radical the F-14 numbers are compared to the 346 CI of the LS1.
This can be benificial to a certain degree depending on the head flow capabilities. It would benefit untill the flow becomes turbulent at which stage it can do the opposite.
Using higher lifts on heads that do not flow best at those lifts is like a "crutch", like a compensator for other deficiency in the combo.
High lift will not wear the spring any more than others if the valvetrain is up to the task. Like increased pressures on springs, high lift rockers, proper p-rod thickness etc...
There is more to it than that but, this gives the basics.
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thanks for the info , my car is a 98 camaro with stock heads , ls6 intake and lt's ,true duals , and a yank 3600 stall , i may upgrade my heads later , just too expensive to do right now
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Attached is some relevant text from a conversation I was having with a friend of mine. You may find it enlightening and relevant to your question.
Good to hear (read?) from you. As to the cam question, there are allot of variables that go with any cam change.
Drivability. As you add cam timing, low end torque suffers. It is a question of how much the torque is moved up in the RPM range. The newer (high peak
output) engines rely on high idle vacuum for good low RPM throttle response.
The timing numbers you show are not "radical" in terms of current cam timing but are no doubt at least 6-10 degrees over stock. It is this addition in overlap timing that causes the idle and low RPM vacuum losses due to pumping losses because both valves are open during the beginning of the intake cycle. In a racing engine, this allows us to add to the compression ratio.
You can't add the mechanical compression ratio without a bunch of effort.
Although it might be worth taking the heads off and cutting about .030 while the manifold is off. The ideal situation would be to add lift only. This allows for more "area under the curve" which gets more air/fuel in/out. The ports flow more CFM at higher valve lift which is why added lift works so well. Until the recent use of hydraulic roller lifters, lift and duration were somewhat interdependent. The diameter of the lifter is fixed. As lift was added the tangency of the lobe to lifter bottom moved from center to off the edge. That destroyed cams and lifters. So timing was added to make the event take longer. There is actually a maximum lifter velocity per degrees of rotation on a flat bottom lifter. This was circumvented by using roller lifters. While they solve the maxV problem they incur a huge weight penalty.
We use enormous springs on the valves and sometimes helper springs on top of the lifter itself. A drag engine often sees spring pressures of 250-400 lbs at seat and 700-1000 lbs at open. So along comes the hydraulic roller bottom lifter. Again it solves the maxV problem but it is still a hydraulic lifter and will tend to pump up and is also very heavy compared to a flat bottom. Very high lifts with high valve spring pressures will also collapse a hydraulic lifter. Recall all hot rod engines had solid lifters too get around that problem. So you see it is a GIANT compromise. Keeping everything light (Ti retainers etc.) is key to life span of the valvetrain. Matching valve springs are a must. I witnessed an engine on a dyno, pickup 45 hp from a valve spring change. Clearly the originals were dead but 45hp?
The gears are in my opinion necesary. with a .5 final in high gear I would go to a 4:11. about a .5 change. The car will still go 160 but it will do it easier on the motor. Remember you will be moving peak torque up the RPM range.
Compression is our friend. For many years we blamed detonation on compression and octane. That is partly true. It was more than that. The shape of the combustion chamber was a much larger factor. The biggest factor of all though is the ignition system. I tell the kids around here "You can have too big of a carburetor, too big of a cam, too big of an exhaust, too much timing, too much gas ....ect. But you can't have too much spark". As compression goes up, peak cylinder pressure goes up by the square of the difference. It becomes harder and harder for the spark to reach ground in such a dense atmosphere. So it waits! It acctually doesn't wait but it travels much slower. When the pressure drops suffecently it hits ground. It just might be scatterd and hit ground in many different places. Hence the knock of the flame fronts colliding. Todays ignitions are as powerful as some small electron beam welders. I have a 600ci engine running 15:1cr at 9200 rpm. It also uses N2O as a power adder. As if it needed it. This engine is run (from time to time) on the street. It also has as much as 38 degrees of advance at 9200. 5 or 6 years ago that would be a fantasy. Today it is routine. Remember GM was searching for the best comprimise that would be EPA legal, drivable by Grandmothers, and last 5 years. You don't have to abide by any of that unless of course you Mom want's to drive it. I urge you to consider the change. At that point it is but a few more fasteners. But, it is your project and I am only dreaming of what I might do. Not that that it would be a good idea.
Drivability. As you add cam timing, low end torque suffers. It is a question of how much the torque is moved up in the RPM range. The newer (high peak
output) engines rely on high idle vacuum for good low RPM throttle response.
The timing numbers you show are not "radical" in terms of current cam timing but are no doubt at least 6-10 degrees over stock. It is this addition in overlap timing that causes the idle and low RPM vacuum losses due to pumping losses because both valves are open during the beginning of the intake cycle. In a racing engine, this allows us to add to the compression ratio.
You can't add the mechanical compression ratio without a bunch of effort.
Although it might be worth taking the heads off and cutting about .030 while the manifold is off. The ideal situation would be to add lift only. This allows for more "area under the curve" which gets more air/fuel in/out. The ports flow more CFM at higher valve lift which is why added lift works so well. Until the recent use of hydraulic roller lifters, lift and duration were somewhat interdependent. The diameter of the lifter is fixed. As lift was added the tangency of the lobe to lifter bottom moved from center to off the edge. That destroyed cams and lifters. So timing was added to make the event take longer. There is actually a maximum lifter velocity per degrees of rotation on a flat bottom lifter. This was circumvented by using roller lifters. While they solve the maxV problem they incur a huge weight penalty.
We use enormous springs on the valves and sometimes helper springs on top of the lifter itself. A drag engine often sees spring pressures of 250-400 lbs at seat and 700-1000 lbs at open. So along comes the hydraulic roller bottom lifter. Again it solves the maxV problem but it is still a hydraulic lifter and will tend to pump up and is also very heavy compared to a flat bottom. Very high lifts with high valve spring pressures will also collapse a hydraulic lifter. Recall all hot rod engines had solid lifters too get around that problem. So you see it is a GIANT compromise. Keeping everything light (Ti retainers etc.) is key to life span of the valvetrain. Matching valve springs are a must. I witnessed an engine on a dyno, pickup 45 hp from a valve spring change. Clearly the originals were dead but 45hp?
The gears are in my opinion necesary. with a .5 final in high gear I would go to a 4:11. about a .5 change. The car will still go 160 but it will do it easier on the motor. Remember you will be moving peak torque up the RPM range.
Compression is our friend. For many years we blamed detonation on compression and octane. That is partly true. It was more than that. The shape of the combustion chamber was a much larger factor. The biggest factor of all though is the ignition system. I tell the kids around here "You can have too big of a carburetor, too big of a cam, too big of an exhaust, too much timing, too much gas ....ect. But you can't have too much spark". As compression goes up, peak cylinder pressure goes up by the square of the difference. It becomes harder and harder for the spark to reach ground in such a dense atmosphere. So it waits! It acctually doesn't wait but it travels much slower. When the pressure drops suffecently it hits ground. It just might be scatterd and hit ground in many different places. Hence the knock of the flame fronts colliding. Todays ignitions are as powerful as some small electron beam welders. I have a 600ci engine running 15:1cr at 9200 rpm. It also uses N2O as a power adder. As if it needed it. This engine is run (from time to time) on the street. It also has as much as 38 degrees of advance at 9200. 5 or 6 years ago that would be a fantasy. Today it is routine. Remember GM was searching for the best comprimise that would be EPA legal, drivable by Grandmothers, and last 5 years. You don't have to abide by any of that unless of course you Mom want's to drive it. I urge you to consider the change. At that point it is but a few more fasteners. But, it is your project and I am only dreaming of what I might do. Not that that it would be a good idea.
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my MS4 has .649/.609 lift and it really screams at about 4,000+rpms. The ms3 is similar in design but the MS4 makes about 20 extra horsepower higher up in the powerband on my motor. I think it is due to the excess amount of lift on the intake. Am I right or am I just off in left field on this one.
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my MS4 has .649/.609 lift and it really screams at about 4,000+rpms. The ms3 is similar in design but the MS4 makes about 20 extra horsepower higher up in the powerband on my motor. I think it is due to the excess amount of lift on the intake. Am I right or am I just off in left field on this one.
Larger durations generally produce higher peak numbers. The MS4 is a top end cam that peaks very high.
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Another thing my buddy always tells me. (kind of relevant to all of the discussions about peak numbers vs under the curve.)
Remember, if you look at valve timing on a time based curve it is only at peak travel once for each opening event, but it is on the seat twice.
I've always though that lift is more of a byproduct of duration and an agressive ramp. Power under the curve is by the flow that occurs when the valve opens and what we have read here lately is that flow above a certain CFM is NA on our LS1/LS6 motors running LS6 style intakes. Max flow is great on paper, but it's the flow from initial opening to the usable flow of the intake sytem where your power is made. As also stated here time and time again, it's a system approach that makes power.
Remember, if you look at valve timing on a time based curve it is only at peak travel once for each opening event, but it is on the seat twice.
I've always though that lift is more of a byproduct of duration and an agressive ramp. Power under the curve is by the flow that occurs when the valve opens and what we have read here lately is that flow above a certain CFM is NA on our LS1/LS6 motors running LS6 style intakes. Max flow is great on paper, but it's the flow from initial opening to the usable flow of the intake sytem where your power is made. As also stated here time and time again, it's a system approach that makes power.
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Mine seems to pull quite strong from 3200 up, and I'm still running 3.42 gears. Many would say it's pointless to run this high lift cam on stock heads as they "stall" after a certain amount of lift anyway. Allen claims the F14 HL pulls away from the F13 and F14 at higher rpms and matches or exceeds them everywhere down low. I personally don't think the cam choice is all that critical on stock headed LS1's as most of us make it out to be. I see 224 cams making the same power and running the same numbers at the track as the "big" cams. I can't make a fair assesment of mine until I have the LS6 intake, 28# injectors, and a 4.10 geared rear end as far as track et/mph. But it does really seem to pull strong SOTP. If I were you, I'd stay with a 224/228 580-590 lift cam on a 111/112 LSA with XER style cam lobe profiles. You just can go wrong with that (IE- F13).