J-Rod

I thought I would post this as a counterpoint to one of the recent topics which took a nasty turn. The situation here is similar. Sleeved motor dropped a sleeve, and is now being replaced with a 427.

The main differnece is how the two parties worked together to solve the issue, and ended up coming to an agreement which was mutually agreeable. This post should not be construed as an attack against eitehr party in the recent thread involving Mike Morgan and iateyourcat. Consider this a lesson to anyone else who plans on investing in one of these rather pricey motors on possible steps you may wish to take in the event of an issue of some sort. My hats is off to Mike and Jayson for resolving this issue without being forced to resort to legal action...

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showt...p;goto=newpost

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

A little patience can go a long way...........


TTT

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

To me it's simple. If the product is defective due to poor quality material or poor assembly workmanship it should be replaced, regardless if it's warrantied or not. That is simply good business practice.

JF WS6

BLKTA, I totally agree with you. Anything that costs upwards of $15K-$20+K dollars SHOULD have a warranty from an obvious manufacturer's defect. A dropped sleeve is an OBVIOUS manufacturer's defect regardless of how the motor is used. If you spend that kind of money all in one shot at a speed shop I believe you should get some kind of preferential treatment to make sure you are 100% happy with the product you purchased. There are new cars that are that are cheaper than some of these superstroker engines.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Absolutely.

But warranties also have a beginning and an end.

I also believe in both sides should have consideration for each other, if something is just out of warranty.

It is also true that a lot of early big bore stuff experienced failures.

You know people would sometimes dog LPE for not having the fastest strokers but as an interesting couuterpoint I think they have a two year warranty on their motors. So I ask you, out of curiousity, would you pay another couple hundo's for a two year warranty???

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

I wouldn't pay extra for a warranty for a $15K engine. For that much $$$, the engine should be able to do what it was intended to do.

You are right about the purpose of a warranty to a point. It's there for a reason, especially for a high performance race motor. A company has the right to take back the goods for inspection so they can make an evaluation. But when there are extinuating circumstances the company should make an exception or least prorate part of the product or service out of goodwill and sound customer service.

Every company that sells a product has made an warranty exception and will make another one in the interest of customer retention. GM does it,Ford does it,etc.

A company doesn't have to legally cover product outside of a warranty, but's it goes a long way for customer satisfaction.

BYBYC5

i think most of you are missing the point. if your car was under warranty,and it broke(legitimetly)and you went out and fixed it yourself and then asked GM to pay for it, you think its gonna happen?
the motor droped sleves,no argument, but then he took matters into his own hands and wants a refund, sorry but id side with the vendor on this one. and what about the length of time on a warranty, does it start when you pick it up or when you accually fire it up. sounds a liitle childish but people need to ask those kinda questions.

humanoidZ06

Finally, a response with sound logic

Like John stated, a warranty has a starting point and an ending point. It is reasonable to expect the warranty period to begin when you take delivery, not when you eventually start the engine. This same logic is carried through by every car company in the country. Most parts sold at the GM parts counter carry a 12 month warranty. Try to envision applying iateyourcat's logic to an oxygen sensor purchased at any GM parts counter - buy the sensor, install it two years later because your headers were on backorder, determine that the sensor is defective, ask the parts counter person to replace it, warranty is declined by the counter person due to the expiration of warranty by time, replace the entire exhaust system and the sensor, demand that the parts manager refund all of your money

The Vette forum link above is a classic example of how these situations should be handled.

humanoidZ06

Post deleted by humanoidZ06

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

There is no sound logic comparing an O2 sensor to
multi-thousand dollar engine. It's easy for you guys to say he shouldn't be compensated ,but I'm sure if this was you it would be different.

At the very least, some type of goodwill adjustment should have been offered to help minimize the repair costs (if repairable). I agree he shouldn't have tried to fix it, but he did and that's where good customer service/relations comes in assist the customer.

2001 Pewter WS6

iTrader: (43)

There are somethings that should be warranted raced or not. A dropped sleeve especially with the history of them should be taken care of. A spun bearing, bent rod or broken piston is a different story. That can be from abuse. How can you make a sleeve drop unless it was installed properly the first time??? I have a friend that had the dropped sleeve problem and it was amazing how hush hush it was.

humanoidZ06

You're still missing the point. Don't focus on the details, focus on the concept. If it helps your understanding, call the part a GM crate engine, transmission, or whatever you prefer.

You are correct that things would be different if this was me because I would not have put myself in this situation. If I invested that much money in an engine, I would have used available parts to start the engine immediately and verify that everything was functional, and as promoted - especially considering the defect rate of early big bore engines.

As I stated in the "other" post, there are two issues - the legal question "Is MMS liable for losses incurred as a result of the engine failure?", and the ethical question "should MMS offer goodwill assistance to the customer?".

As for the legal question, the customer was advised that nitrous engines have no warranty. The customer did not dispute this fact. He willingly accepted these terms by taking delivery of the engine. Even if a court ruled that iateyourcat's engine should be backed by the same warranty at a NA engine because it was never sprayed, which is unlikely, that warranty was expired by time. For sake of argument, let's suppose an even more unlikely scenario - and the judge rules in favor of iateyourcat. Legally he has a duty to mitigate damages. Since he didn't actively pursue resolution with MMS, and he opted to purchase a C5R block, it is quite obvious that he was negligent in his duty.

As for the ethical issue, consider what "goodwill" is. It is a tool used by businesses to foster relationships. It is not right for you to expect goodwill assistance in every case. It should be at the discretion of the business, and based on the circumstances. In this case, the customer had repairs done without consulting with Mike at MMS. Had he contacted Mike first, perhaps goodwill assistance would have been offered. However, it is unreasonable to expect MMS to pay for repairs that they weren't given ample opportunity to participate in.

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

I understand the concept. No where did I state that every case should be handled with goodwill.

You're missing the point. The core and only true issue should be:

Is the product defective and will someone step up to the plate to help the customer regardless whether it's warrantied or not? That simple.

humanoidZ06

I'm not missing the point. I'm looking at this from a totally objective viewpoint, based on the facts that have been presented by both sides. iateyourcat asserted that his engine is covered by an implied warranty. Then he cited an email from a shop manager that addressed durability. He disputed legal issues, and the answer to the legal question is quite clear. If you don't believe me, pick up West's Annotated California Codes and research this for yourself.

As for someone stepping up to assist, Mike wasn't given the opportunity to do so prior to the repairs being performed elsewhere. Why can't you admit that iateyourcat handled this poorly? This goes back to mitigation of damages. A business must be profitable to exist. MMS could have repaired the engine for significantly less than the retail reimbursement that is being demanded. Based on your position on this issue, I suspect that you don't have any experience owning/operating a business. If you did, you would likely recognize that this is not fair to the business. If this was my business, I would have offered to replace the block (including assembly of the engine, but no labor for removal/installation of the engine), and I would have offered to cover the cost of freight in both directions. However, I would not participate in repairs completed by another shop without giving me the opportunity to examine the parts and make the appropriate decision.

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

I'm well versed in the operating costs and profitability of doing business. So please don't stoop to insults. Your solution is exactly what I
said. You need to reread my previous posts because what you said you would offer is exactly what you're arguing with me on; "GOODWILL".

J-Rod

Again, there are valid points on both sides of this issue. Wheter time remained, or time was over, one should always exhaust all avenues with a shop or it owner before being forced to fall back on legal action. I posted this link, not to re-ignite this same argument, but to show that stuff happens some times, and in most cases if the shop can, they will work with you.

I alos understand that there were some mitigating circumstances that went into the recent situation regarding time, and perhaps some form of good will might have been extended by the shop, but those are all questions of hindsight. It didn't happen that way, and they are where they are.

My point in posting this is to show that things can be worked out...

DrkPhx

iTrader: (15)

J-Rod - You're right, sorry for hijacking your thread and beating a moot point.

humanoidZ06

I had no intention of insulting you, and I apologize if you intepreted my statement that way. I simply made the observation that I don't believe you have ever owned or operated a sole proprietorship. The view is drastically different from the driver's seat. It's not objective to hypothesize about what "could" or "should" be done from the business standpoint if you haven't been there.

You must have missed my qualifying statement regarding assistance for the customer. I would not participate in repairs performed by another shop if I was not given the opportunity to examine the parts and form my own conclusions.

BYBYC5

Bottom line is MMS was not given an initial chance to correct the problem. the repairs were made on his own!!!!!

iateyourcat

Yes, I do dispute this fact. And, as far as facts go why don't you make sure you have one before you start putting words in my mouth.