8k RPM possible with hyd roller?
8k RPM possible with hyd roller? Is 8000 rpm possible with the right hydraulic roller cam if using top of the line Johnson lifters, shaft mounted rockers, and lightened valve train components?
Would shaft mount rockers be a must?
Would shaft mount rockers be a must?
Last edited by TA63; Jun 21, 2015 at 03:24 AM.
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2014
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In principle yes, Johnson Lifters are made by Morel, however I am not sure if Morel will private-label their very best Hydraulic lifter, so i would choose the Morel's just to be sure. Sustained high rpm could be a potential issue for you if you don't go to shaft mounted rockers, personally I would recommend you talk to Kip at Cam Motion.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 157
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In principle yes, Johnson Lifters are made by Morel, however I am not sure if Morel will private-label their very best Hydraulic lifter, so i would choose the Morel's just to be sure. Sustained high rpm could be a potential issue for you if you don't go to shaft mounted rockers, personally I would recommend you talk to Kip at Cam Motion.
To answer the OP, yes it's possible with a well thought out top end. I'd definitely recommend going with a good shaft mount system.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Coast of San Mateo County Between Pacifica & HMB
^^^^^^^^AGREED!!^^^^^^^^
By the time you have shaft mount rockers you may as well go
LLSR from CAMMOTION, your lifters will be less $$ and you will
Definitely have much GREATER RELIABILITY!!
By the time you have shaft mount rockers you may as well go
LLSR from CAMMOTION, your lifters will be less $$ and you will
Definitely have much GREATER RELIABILITY!!
You realize you're going to need shaft rockers for a LLSR right? Not only that but they have to be adjustable which is even more dollars. Solid roller lifters are also still going to cost 400+ for a decent set. So you're not really saving too much over a hydraulic setup.
Now if the op wants to spin 8k it will be easier with a solid roller but can be done without one. The copo camaro does 8500. You just have to pick the right lobes good rockers and the right valves/pushrods
Now if the op wants to spin 8k it will be easier with a solid roller but can be done without one. The copo camaro does 8500. You just have to pick the right lobes good rockers and the right valves/pushrods
Last edited by redbird555; Jun 21, 2015 at 02:15 PM.
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 45
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From: MCCALLA,ALABAMA
which lifter would be the best set up? know the stock ones and ls7 are good but been looking at a lot of the tie bar in different brands. all about the same pricing(350.00 to 1k). also regular or short stroke ones for say in the neighborhood of 7k to 7.5k rpm
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Launching!
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 215
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Dont want to start a slanging match with you, but the fact is Morel make most of the performance hydraulic lifters for the big name's, including Johnson. Naturally they will deny that but its just a fact of life, another matter of "fact" I am running Johnson's high RPM hydraulic lifters in my 435ci Mosler engine and they will easily spin to 8,000 RPM.
As we have that engine's rpm limited to 7,500 [and usually change gears at at 7,250 rpm] we also run the standard LS7 pedestal rocker, with the CHE bronze bushing kit, as we believe thats about the lightest rocker arm on the market.
Cheers,
Mark.
Last edited by KiwiKid; Jun 21, 2015 at 04:48 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo Hi Havoc,
Dont want to start a slanging match with you, but the fact is Morel make most of the performance hydraulic lifters for the big name's, including Johnson. Naturally they will deny that but its just a fact of life, another matter of "fact" I am running Johnson's high RPM hydraulic lifters in my 435ci Mosler engine and they easily spin to 8,000 RPM.
As we have that engine's rpm limited to 7,500 and usually change gears at at 7,250 rpm, we are also running the standard LS7 pedestal rocker, with the CHE bronze bushing kit.
Cheers,
Mark.
Dont want to start a slanging match with you, but the fact is Morel make most of the performance hydraulic lifters for the big name's, including Johnson. Naturally they will deny that but its just a fact of life, another matter of "fact" I am running Johnson's high RPM hydraulic lifters in my 435ci Mosler engine and they easily spin to 8,000 RPM.
As we have that engine's rpm limited to 7,500 and usually change gears at at 7,250 rpm, we are also running the standard LS7 pedestal rocker, with the CHE bronze bushing kit.
Cheers,
Mark.
Morel makes lunatis lifters though, I have held jihnsons in my hands and they in no way resemble morels. Toilet and tick will tell you the same thing.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 157
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It is sometimes difficult to know who is making what for the different "big box" distributors. It's all good...not trying to argue one bit. As Redbird said, I've been working at Johnson Lifters/SEC for almost 15yrs. Everything is manufactured and assembled in Michigan. In no way are we connected to Morel.
I am glad to hear the results of your Mosler, though!!
I am glad to hear the results of your Mosler, though!!
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 215
Likes: 1
It is sometimes difficult to know who is making what for the different "big box" distributors. It's all good...not trying to argue one bit. As Redbird said, I've been working at Johnson Lifters/SEC for almost 15yrs. Everything is manufactured and assembled in Michigan. In no way are we connected to Morel.
I am glad to hear the results of your Mosler, though!!
I am glad to hear the results of your Mosler, though!!
As I said I don't want to start a slanging match with you, and I am happy to bow to your obvious first hand knowledge.
A Morel dealer claimed that he visited the Morel factory which is majority owned by John Callies [the founder of Callies crank's] and that I would be shocked if I knew the big brand names that have their lifters made by Morel, and many to their design, so that they are not simply re-branded Morels. When I mentioned to him that I was running the Johnson's he said "yep their also made by Morel to Johnson's specifications"
He is obviously wrong in this instance, and I shall inform him so, but having spoken to John Callies myself [over some solid Morel lifters I am purchasing] he did admit that they make many of the industries lifters, as a contract manufacture of such specialty items.
Cheers,
Mark.
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: MCCALLA,ALABAMA
never done the short tie bar lifter on a ls. are they just dropin or do i have to fab the factory lifter tray to hold them in place like the hold down on the old school sbc? or would you get the stock style short from like comp or another brand and use the factory ls7 hold down?
Last edited by RUNUDWN99T/A; Jun 21, 2015 at 06:19 PM.
I'm pretty sure it's been done. I know you have to run the best lifters and rockers you can afford. I highly suggest talking to Kip@CamMotion. He'll set you up in the right direction.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 106
Likes: 1
Lifters/valvetrain are one factor however air flow is another. Simply pairing the greatest and shiniest lifters and cam with a 241 head will not get you to 8000 rpm.
When I was at Speed Inc. the shop car 02 Z28 with twin HP-72 turbos and 385ci would shift at 7800rpm (I recall), hydraulic roller, this was with LS7 lifters, PSI dual springs, 200lbs on the seat, 240 duration cam, XE lobes and factory rockers.
While everyone is about the fastest ramps, most aggressive lobes and highest lift, we would actually use less aggressive low lift lobes, to maintain stability at near 8000rpm.
I know turbocharged throws off your equation but it brings home the fact with enough airflow (provided by turbochargers in this case) you can make 8000rpm the good valvetrain pieces simply support that number.
I wouldn't go with shaft rockers, unless I was changing the valve length, to get more installed height etc. or solid lifter. NHRA Stock Eliminator LS3 engines use stock rockers and run 8000 rpm, with hydraulic lifters.
Thats where these slow leakdown lifters came from.... Stock eliminator classes. You have to run a factory appearing lifter, but you can modify them internally.
When I was at Speed Inc. the shop car 02 Z28 with twin HP-72 turbos and 385ci would shift at 7800rpm (I recall), hydraulic roller, this was with LS7 lifters, PSI dual springs, 200lbs on the seat, 240 duration cam, XE lobes and factory rockers.
While everyone is about the fastest ramps, most aggressive lobes and highest lift, we would actually use less aggressive low lift lobes, to maintain stability at near 8000rpm.
I know turbocharged throws off your equation but it brings home the fact with enough airflow (provided by turbochargers in this case) you can make 8000rpm the good valvetrain pieces simply support that number.
I wouldn't go with shaft rockers, unless I was changing the valve length, to get more installed height etc. or solid lifter. NHRA Stock Eliminator LS3 engines use stock rockers and run 8000 rpm, with hydraulic lifters.
Thats where these slow leakdown lifters came from.... Stock eliminator classes. You have to run a factory appearing lifter, but you can modify them internally.
I spun my hyd cam to 8k with stock lifters and che bushed stock rockers, with nothing special in the valvetrain. Isn't much to it, other then not using a retarded cam lobe and having decent springs. I was running pac 1207xs at the time. FWIW it quit making power at 7600
On The Tree
Joined: May 2011
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I definitely agree with the above. Airflow and cam mean everything. The rest are just supporting components. Most of the high RPM builds I've been involved with use upgraded stock rockers...besides endurance applications. Without knowing the details and intended use of this engine, it's kind of tough to recommend anything.
No particular purpose in mind for the motor, just thinking of doing something a little out of the ordinary. It would be a weekend toy that will make an occasional trip down the dragstrip. I have a Callies magnum XL crankshaft in a 3.185 stroke. Thinking about throwing it in a 4 inch bore block and feeding it with twin 58-62mm turbos. Heads would consist of ported 799's with titanium valves. Looking for input on the rest of the valvetrain. I wouldn't mind a LLSR, but shaft rockers certainly strain the budget. If I can get there with a well designed hydraulic setup, I would prefer to stay with one.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 106
Likes: 1
Thinking about throwing it in a 4 inch bore block and feeding it with twin 58-62mm turbos. Heads would consist of ported 799's with titanium valves. Looking for input on the rest of the valvetrain. I wouldn't mind a LLSR, but shaft rockers certainly strain the budget. If I can get there with a well designed hydraulic setup, I would prefer to stay with one.
I would go with TFS 220 as cast heads or ideally a 235 head for rpm sake, stainless valves. Buy them through TEA, have them install K800 springs, shimmed up to your cam lift specs.
Those heads will give you a better gasket seal, more flow, and many valve spring options versus 799 heads.
Last edited by Fraser588; Jun 22, 2015 at 07:51 AM.
never done the short tie bar lifter on a ls. are they just dropin or do i have to fab the factory lifter tray to hold them in place like the hold down on the old school sbc? or would you get the stock style short from like comp or another brand and use the factory ls7 hold down?
I'm going to be running these, they are the morel #5425. The one on the top is stock length lifter. No lifter trays 
Hi Havoc,
As I said I don't want to start a slanging match with you, and I am happy to bow to your obvious first hand knowledge.
A Morel dealer claimed that he visited the Morel factory which is majority owned by John Callies [the founder of Callies crank's] and that I would be shocked if I knew the big brand names that have their lifters made by Morel, and many to their design, so that they are not simply re-branded Morels. When I mentioned to him that I was running the Johnson's he said "yep their also made by Morel to Johnson's specifications"
He is obviously wrong in this instance, and I shall inform him so, but having spoken to John Callies myself [over some solid Morel lifters I am purchasing] he did admit that they make many of the industries lifters, as a contract manufacture of such specialty items.
Cheers,
Mark.
As I said I don't want to start a slanging match with you, and I am happy to bow to your obvious first hand knowledge.
A Morel dealer claimed that he visited the Morel factory which is majority owned by John Callies [the founder of Callies crank's] and that I would be shocked if I knew the big brand names that have their lifters made by Morel, and many to their design, so that they are not simply re-branded Morels. When I mentioned to him that I was running the Johnson's he said "yep their also made by Morel to Johnson's specifications"
He is obviously wrong in this instance, and I shall inform him so, but having spoken to John Callies myself [over some solid Morel lifters I am purchasing] he did admit that they make many of the industries lifters, as a contract manufacture of such specialty items.
Cheers,
Mark.