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We have bushed .904 lifters in our motor. Cost $200.00 to have the lifter holes bored on a Dart LS Next iron block. Just remember to add the extra weight into your calculations to get the right spring pressure you will need to spin it to your target rpm.
That’s a great price on machine work. You run CHE or BHJ bushings? What bronze, classic or modern?
Yes it is. I have an aluminum block in my shop right now that just got a lifter bore sleeve due to this exact same scenario. This engine never saw street time with new camshaft and lifters, and it’s was a mess. Crappy part is, the metal coming off of the cam lobe and lifter wheel is very hard. It gets “slung” into the two adjacent cylinders and destroys the bores and pistons skirts. Metal everywhere in the engine. Usually needs a tear down and complete rebuild. Hopefully not the case for Mickey here.
Hmm makes me wonder, my next block after my LS2 (if there ever is another one), might be iron.
Yes it is. I have an aluminum block in my shop right now that just got a lifter bore sleeve due to this exact same scenario. This engine never saw street time with new camshaft and lifters, and it’s was a mess. Crappy part is, the metal coming off of the cam lobe and lifter wheel is very hard. It gets “slung” into the two adjacent cylinders and destroys the bores and pistons skirts. Metal everywhere in the engine. Usually needs a tear down and complete rebuild. Hopefully not the case for Mickey here.
Block is iron so reduced likelihood of serious damage.
OP/Mick, look into BAM bushed roller lifters. They are cheaper than other bushed lifters and i've heard very good things about them. There's a distributor in Sydney sells them. Not sure if they have them in .903 size
After hearing of all this carnage with solid rollers i'm going to run oem hydraulic lifters in my LS2, and shift at 7800rpm. I will take 30hp less, over $1000 lifters failing like that. You drive it hard i get it, but i've been shifting my camaro 7500 shifts for a long time now, with btr dual spring kit. It will not die. I've put it through hell on the street, and i'm talking a lot of full wot 1/4 mile runs also. (let's just say i have a private road).
And, my previous cnc 5.3 heads/cam ls1 HSV was 120mph 1/4 track proven. I bought the car near new at under 25,000 kms old. It ended up at 130,000 kms before i sold it. In that time i absolutely destroyed that car, street and drag strip. The OEM Lifters never came out the block. 7200-7300 shifts, with heavier comp dual springs than i have now.
Are these solid rollers made of butter? but seriously if they are that hard on the rollers just because a hydraulic lifter soaks up some of the hit, they are not worth the trouble.
OP/Mick, look into BAM bushed roller lifters. They are cheaper than other bushed lifters and i've heard very good things about them. There's a distributor in Sydney sells them. Not sure if they have them in .903 size
After hearing of all this carnage with solid rollers i'm going to run oem hydraulic lifters in my LS2, and shift at 7800rpm. I will take 30hp less, over $1000 lifters failing like that. You drive it hard i get it, but i've been shifting my camaro 7500 shifts for a long time now, with btr dual spring kit. It will not die. I've put it through hell on the street, and i'm talking a lot of full wot 1/4 mile runs also. (let's just say i have a private road).
And, my previous cnc 5.3 heads/cam ls1 HSV was 120mph 1/4 track proven. I bought the car near new at under 25,000 kms old. It ended up at 130,000 kms before i sold it. In that time i absolutely destroyed that car, street and drag strip. The OEM Lifters never came out the block. 7200-7300 shifts, with heavier comp dual springs than i have now.
Are these solid rollers made of butter? but seriously if they are that hard on the rollers just because a hydraulic lifter soaks up some of the hit, they are not worth the trouble.
Launch I am unsure how harsh Crow's solid rollers really are.
It may even be a faulty camshaft that caused the failure too.
I'm sure Mick will post once he finds out for sure what the cause was and the accompanying damage.
I did mention the spring pressures being too low but it might not be right because we don't know what spring pressure requirements these crow solid rollers require.
The morels I'm using are designed for racing and for 8000rpm+ applications so fingers crossed I don't have any issues.
I will certainly be thinking about this engine now for sure. He had a good quality set in there.
After this I would definitely go bushed lifters too.
I have heard of BAM.
But I didn't want to go that route.
Ive opened it up , pulled lifters and basically there all stuffed can hear bearings grinding in most. The intake valve side definitely worse then exhaust. The worst one has 2 tiny flat spots so i picked it up early. Bores are mint, just tiny bit of skirt scuff. heads are good, must hv been close on the tune coz one wipe with a cloth and valves still shine...
Ill go out on a limb here and say not enough valve spring. I drive it for how its made, every drive ill spin it to 7800rpm . Id say lifter wheel has been gettin some air and beating itself to death. I think pac 1238x with 700open is high for the street . What do you all think of the pac 1237x with 200 seat and 585 open, would end up being about 220, 600 shimmed roughly
Plan , titanium intake valves, 1237x spring kit with titanium bits, new cam , Yt rockers will be retired and the jesels will go on, new mlx head gaskets, lifters in 2 minds, bushed seem better but they dont hold oil like bearings which for street isnt good, aviad 4 stage dry sump, ill get interior done as well, new front seats upholstered in same color as when i bought it, upgraded stereo and may as well do my new design for ground effects aero, one piece, stick my new semi forged rims on which will run 265 front and 315 rear rubber, will hv to roll guards a tad also.
Thats it then im done, started in 2009 and everything is new and improved.
Will work out well , i can start my youngest boys 1st car... Doing a eh ute with new 2020 driveline, v6
Check out the isky 1377 EZ MAX roller lifters. Much bigger rollers vs the typical needle bearings. Much higher load rating. Might be about what you're looking for.
Ive opened it up , pulled lifters and basically there all stuffed can hear bearings grinding in most. The intake valve side definitely worse then exhaust. The worst one has 2 tiny flat spots so i picked it up early. Bores are mint, just tiny bit of skirt scuff. heads are good, must hv been close on the tune coz one wipe with a cloth and valves still shine...
Ill go out on a limb here and say not enough valve spring. I drive it for how its made, every drive ill spin it to 7800rpm . Id say lifter wheel has been gettin some air and beating itself to death. I think pac 1238x with 700open is high for the street . What do you all think of the pac 1237x with 200 seat and 585 open, would end up being about 220, 600 shimmed roughly
Plan , titanium intake valves, 1237x spring kit with titanium bits, new cam , Yt rockers will be retired and the jesels will go on, new mlx head gaskets, lifters in 2 minds, bushed seem better but they dont hold oil like bearings which for street isnt good, aviad 4 stage dry sump, ill get interior done as well, new front seats upholstered in same color as when i bought it, upgraded stereo and may as well do my new design for ground effects aero, one piece, stick my new semi forged rims on which will run 265 front and 315 rear rubber, will hv to roll guards a tad also.
Thats it then im done, started in 2009 and everything is new and improved.
Will work out well , i can start my youngest boys 1st car... Doing a eh ute with new 2020 driveline, v6
So that means you got to tear it down.
If you are driving it to 7800rpm every drive I doubt that much spring pressure will suffice.
But could this be the cause of destruction? Maybe, but other more experienced people will know better than me.
Before you can decide what spring don't you think it's a good idea to contact crow cams first and ask what pressures are required for those lobes so at least you know what they need to be on.
You did not mention what brand camshaft you are going with next? Care to share?
I don't think you need to use titanium valves. You just need to calculate the weight of valvetrain components and choose the spring to suit the load and intended RPM range.
You already have light valves in there. The expense going to Titanium valves is high. BUT with Tony's testing they are good for another 10-12rwhp from what I have seen on one of his threads.
Hell, I'm on 200lb seat and 510lb open so depending on what camshaft you go with this would be the bare minimum for your intended RPM range.
You don't want to run a spring that's too heavy either like I did. Not good.
It might also be a good idea to consider the same spring kit Darth and I are using (depending on camshaft choice of course).
Dry sump is a good idea but do you really need with the priority main oiling of the LSX block? I don't know that's why I'm asking.
Isky also have a really good set of needle bearing lifters too.
Sounds to me you don't want the bushed version due to the oiling.
The new project sounds really cool.
That will keep you busy too.
Check out the isky 1377 EZ MAX roller lifters. Much bigger rollers vs the typical needle bearings. Much higher load rating. Might be about what you're looking for.
Great lifer.
If mine ever fail, I have these saved in my watchlist on ebay.
I don't think the OP wants to go bushed.
He wants the needles.
So that means you got to tear it down.
If you are driving it to 7800rpm every drive I doubt that much spring pressure will suffice.
But could this be the cause of destruction? Maybe, but other more experienced people will know better than me.
Before you can decide what spring don't you think it's a good idea to contact crow cams first and ask what pressures are required for those lobes so at least you know what they need to be on.
You did not mention what brand camshaft you are going with next? Care to share?
I don't think you need to use titanium valves. You just need to calculate the weight of valvetrain components and choose the spring to suit the load and intended RPM range.
You already have light valves in there. The expense going to Titanium valves is high. BUT with Tony's testing they are good for another 10-12rwhp from what I have seen on one of his threads.
Hell, I'm on 200lb seat and 510lb open so depending on what camshaft you go with this would be the bare minimum for your intended RPM range.
You don't want to run a spring that's too heavy either like I did. Not good.
It might also be a good idea to consider the same spring kit Darth and I are using (depending on camshaft choice of course).
Dry sump is a good idea but do you really need with the priority main oiling of the LSX block? I don't know that's why I'm asking.
Isky also have a really good set of needle bearing lifters too.
Sounds to me you don't want the bushed version due to the oiling.
The new project sounds really cool.
That will keep you busy too.
Dealing with crow cams is an average experience, i had to push em for spring rates then they were not very convincing. I dont think all or many/if any at all, cam manufacturers would do spintron testing of each cam with different weight valves. My springs now are 185seat 520open, Ive never had an issue with pac springs so no need of change.
Ill check bearings but at the moment its heads off , new springs,no machining.
As soon as covid has a rest ill be doin bout 2 tracks days/time trials a month , drysump will be better when cornering, will produce a few extra hp.
Ill get titanium valves, 40% lighter, less stress on parts, . The lifters were definitely worse on the intake side, far heavier valve to support. So heres the question, whats better lighter valves or heavier, wet sump or dry, if money isnt involved
Ive listened to advice from professional engine builders for a long time, wont be doing that in future, will decide myself whats best. Most get stuck in their own world. I questioned last builder bout a few items like titanium, cam, springs, rockers.i Always said i wanted strong and realiable. and would rather pay a few extra dollars instead of like ive been doing for the last 20yrs is taking advise and having to do countless rebuilds due to what they think. Id much rather stuff it up myself....I do this car stuff coz i like it, not because ive got to make a dollar
Great lifer.
If mine ever fail, I have these saved in my watchlist on ebay.
I don't think the OP wants to go bushed.
He wants the needles.
Yup. Those 1377 are not bushed. They use roller bearings instead of (or possibly better thought of as "oversized") needles. I want to say the bushed ones are 375 prefix to the part number
I guy i know used them in his bbc, went thru 2 sets and changed to bearing and all good. he said he was told the bushed dont hold oil after shut down like a bearing does... just researching.
The nascar ls7 engines built by ECR that were surviving 24hr endurance races (that my heads i bought are from), they used the large .937 jesel roller lifters which also don't have tie bars that can flex, they use a retainer system which works similar to the factory plastic lifter cups. If you willing to remove block and machine to suit those lifters, they are the ultimate lifter. They also come along on ebay fairly often for much less than half new cost. There's a set on ebay now for only $500 usd. Because those nascar teams have crazy dollars and just dump spare parts they no longer need that have only done one or two races. Even brand new sets come along. I think those may be the only lifters that will survive a solid roller on a street car, that you want to drive how you want to drive it.
To see which lifters i'm talking about search on ebay USA... 16 Jesel Dogbone .937" Solid Roller Lifters COATED Straighat Up From a LS Chevy.
Makes me kick myself for not buying one of the ls7 nascar engine blocks that were already machined and bronze bushed for those lifters, back when they were available for 1k usd.
Also forgot to mention those ECR nascar engines had titanium intake and exhaust valves. I assume so as to not need to run huge spring pressures. They go all out for longevity/reliabilty on those engines and the valvetrain is the weakest link. So if you can do titanium intakes at least, do so. The way we drive our cars on the street and you even race circuit, it is like nascar endurance. lf your crower hippos only lasted that long then all of the drag race brand solid lifters, i just don't see any of them lasting any decent amount of time, especially if your exhaust side were also gone as the valves are light. If you go bushed, the bushes will wear out. If you go needles, they will collapse. I think someone else has now made a solid roller lifter that spins metal on metal, it has no bush or needles, it spins on solid steel and lets the oil do it's thing. I can't remember the name of them. They might be the way to go. I'm not sure how the jesels i mentioned above are set up inside.
Pac1209x and stainless 2.165 valve with no issues with a cam motion llsr. If you decide to use a cam motion grind and titanium valves on intake side, pac 1209x are a good valve spring.
Dealing with crow cams is an average experience, i had to push em for spring rates then they were not very convincing. I dont think all or many/if any at all, cam manufacturers would do spintron testing of each cam with different weight valves. My springs now are 185seat 520open, Ive never had an issue with pac springs so no need of change.
Ill check bearings but at the moment its heads off , new springs,no machining.
As soon as covid has a rest ill be doin bout 2 tracks days/time trials a month , drysump will be better when cornering, will produce a few extra hp.
Ill get titanium valves, 40% lighter, less stress on parts, . The lifters were definitely worse on the intake side, far heavier valve to support. So heres the question, whats better lighter valves or heavier, wet sump or dry, if money isnt involved
Ive listened to advice from professional engine builders for a long time, wont be doing that in future, will decide myself whats best. Most get stuck in their own world. I questioned last builder bout a few items like titanium, cam, springs, rockers.i Always said i wanted strong and realiable. and would rather pay a few extra dollars instead of like ive been doing for the last 20yrs is taking advise and having to do countless rebuilds due to what they think. Id much rather stuff it up myself....I do this car stuff coz i like it, not because ive got to make a dollar
My dealing with crow cams were similar to yours but they do list the spring pressures for their hydraulic lines. I called up their tech line once and I knew more about the camshaft than what the tech guy did.
And I don't know a lot.
Where are you going to source the titanium valves from? Make sure they have that special coating on them so they live and be reliable.
Tony could send you a set to suit? But you will need to redo the seats as they are larger at 2.250.
If money isn't involved of course the dry sump is better and having the lightest valvetrain possible also is beneficial.
Would it be over 10k for a dry sump and titanium valves?
Those spring and seat pressures should work better but you got to calculate what you need based on valvetrain weight, intended RPM etc, You want to use the lightest spring you can get away with.
I have spoken to a few builders down here and I didn't really get anywhere.
Tony is the only one who actually goes in to the details and he would be the perfect person to help you out especially since you purchased the top end from him.
If he can give you a top end that has allowed you to set the NA hp record I would trust him for this too.
Also, I'm not sure how much lighter the Jesel's are over the nose compared to the yella terras.
There are bushed lifters with axle oiling. What’s the concern?
That is exactly right. There is no concern. Have seen the roller bearing type come apart and go thru the motor that's why we won't use them.
Those lifters I posted come in 3 sizes .842 .874 and .904 You can get them with needle bearings or go needless bronze. The point is that they have pressurized oil going there. As long as you use a good oil you will not see any wear on the bronze bushings. We have switched to Schaffers oil. The 7000 high zinc racing series. We have been very impressed with how good everything looks when we refresh. This year all the bearings looked like we just installed them so we left them. When we cut open the oil filter after every oil change there is absolutely no contaminants in them at all. Very impressed with this oil.
04-15-2020, 01:02 PM
