BLKCOFY

Current Build Status:

I've been following this forum since September, as I initiated my LS4 swap into my 87' Pontiac Fiero. Mostly, I was looking for insight on the engine, tranny, and all the cool things you guys have done with engines. Not alot of aftermarket support yet, but hopefully it will come! I ended up finding the engine out of a 2005 Grand Prix GXP with 40,000 miles on the engine and only 50 miles on the tranny. Apparently, the original owner had his tranny replaced and totaled the car the very same day!

Ryan Gick at Sinister Performance has been doing this LS4 swap, and it will be the first Fiero to have this completed. Several folks have started similar swaps, but I believe this is the first I've heard of that is actually this far along. Ryan recently got the car on all four tires and took it on it's maiden test drive yesterday! He's in Fort Wayne, IN and the weather's been pretty crappy, so he's not been able to open it up yet...but he reports that the increased power is very evident, especially mid-range and top end. OEM GT Fieros originally had 2.8L V6 engines at 140hp. Based on the porting work and computer tuning, he's predicting hp levels at or above 340hp. I'm sure you guys have alot of experience on what those things can do and what performance can be squeezed out of this engine w/out rockers and cams, so I'd be very interested to hear your ideas.

I kept the 4T65E TAPShift transmission, and had a performance shift kit installed from TripleEdgePerformance. I also found a custom paddle shift kit from Twisted Machine, and Ryan happily reported it is working perfectly with very crisp shifts! I know paddle shifts are normally considered gimmicks, but I gave up my OEM 5 spd and wanted to have some remenance of shifting! This engine would have made mince meat out of my Getrag so I went with the 4T65. We kept the DoD functionality to the engine, so that probably keeps me from using LS1x parts, but I like the idea of having a V8 Fiero that's capable of 30mpg!

Ryan was also able to reprogram most of the BCM and DIC functionality to work in the Fiero remote start, keyless entry, and especially the gear indicators that is linked to the paddle shift when in TAPShift mode. I think he's got some playing to do with deleting some of the error codes like ABS and Steer Assist, but most of the DIC is reading correctly. Oh, there's an issue with getting the speedometer to read correctly, but he's got a solution for this as well. I'm telling you guys, Ryan is fricken amazing. I've never been more excited!!

He's scheduled to get everything professionally aligned this week and once the weather breaks, he'll be able to put the car through its pacing to determine how to HPtune everything. I'm sure he'll provide more visuals and better explain than I can on what's been done thus far!

In the meantime, I wanted to share a photo of the finished engine bay. It's almost looks like it was meant to be there! I'm still gased about what my 0-60 time will be with more hp and almost 1000 lbs less weight than the car the engine came out of! Any educated guesses??



If there's any interest, you can see all the details of the swap on my Fiero forum. I just wanted to share with this forum as you guys have been extremely helpful with helping me on this swap. Thanks!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/086013.html

Blkcofy

KONG

iTrader: (4)

Nice swap!! I am more partial to the Supercharged 3800 swap due to less issues and better fitment. Good job on the swap, looks like you will end up with a very imressive car.

Rhedalert

iTrader: (21)

Good Lawd!!!!

deft

iTrader: (7)

this is pretty much the first ls4 swap ive seen. it looks really sick and should be good for some pretty high numbers. i know ill definitely be following the progress.....stick around the forums and get to know us, we arent all bad and we'd be glad to have you!

BLKCOFY

I definitely appreciate the warm reception thus far. I will continue to stay close and update the progress. The alignment job happens tomorrow, and Ryan will start playing with the HPTuner program to work his magic. I've asked him to see if he can get the car dyno'd, but I think most places that aren't the track charge like $100. I may have to wait on that one, though I'm madly curious as to what kinds of power this puts down with the tune and porting.

Again, if there's continued interest, I'll continue to share! Now...where's that aftermarket cam and turbo kit you guys have been discussing!!

deft

iTrader: (7)

for the cam, user nighthand seems like he might be the one to talk to (link)

for the turbo.....it looks like the only one in existance is for sale....(link)

Sinister Performance

I appreciate blkcofy for giving me the opportunity to do this swap. Ever since this engine came out, I've wanted to put it into another car (something lighter with better traction than a FWD).

Anyway, the car is driving now and there are still a few loose ends to tie up. This swap has been a learning experience but I enjoy the challenges.

You can follow the progress from start to finish on my website here: http://www.gmtuners.com/LS4/swap1.htm

-ryan

07gxpgray

iTrader: (7)

very nice job Ryan!

mikeroot2

Nice work, and the tap shift on the GXP was/is not a gimmick. You can hold the gears as long as you want with it. Should be a fun *** car. For what you must have into it $100 to get some true dyno numbers is a good deal. enjoy it and like the others said, keep us posted.

Nacho SS

iTrader: (4)

Gonna be fun....

slick1851

Ls4 Honda Civic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

06PIMPALASS

We stuck a late model camaro 3.4 into an 88 GT and even though it was saddled with the 2.8 intake and factory exhaust it still went pretty good,This one should be a handfull!

importandy

I have always been a fireo fan. They are sweet little predecessors of today's version of the "sport compact". If you swap a lambo body kit on there with that engine, there will be nobody thinking it is a fiero with an LS4. Great job, sweet ride and in the words of Joe Dirt, "Keep on keepin' on."

Count of Monte Carlo

I cant fit in a Fiero that well... I'm sad....

Sint3k

join the big and tall club , your not the only one

06 SS

Yeah, they are not made in man-size at all. After reading some of the progess on the install, couple of things jump out at me. First is you leaving the 40K mile valve springs in. IMO a big mistake, they are crappy when new and I doubt they are any better with the miles on them. The heads are already pretty dang good here, the cam is what is keeping it from making power. When you ported them and left the stock cam, I would be afraid that all you did is drop some velocity and lost torque pretty much everywhere because the stock cam won't let it pull up high enough to make power with the STOCK heads, much less ported ones. Moot point because the stock springs won't stand up to spinning a longer duration cam up where it would make power anyway. I think you would be way happier (especially with the lower weight) if you ditched the stock cam for something with more duration/lift and added new valve springs so you could rev it higher. Obviously would have been easy with the engine on a stand, but such is life.

lou_dias

You should have put in the 6-speed kit Archie sells.

Sinister Performance

First off the springs were checked for seat and open pressure by the machine shop and they were well within specs. I saw no reason to replace them since the stock cam was being used and this engine didn't have a lot of miles on it. If this engine was going to have a custom cam or even higher ratio rocker arms installed at the time of the build, I would have recommended better springs to the customer. I'm curious tho, is this issue you have with the stock springs just an opinion, or do you have dyno and durability testing to back your statements up?

As far as the porting goes, and your assumption that low end power was somehow "hurt" by what was done, I honestly don't think you know what you are talking about here. I've got a college degree in high performance automotive technologies which includes performance head porting. I've hand ported a lot of cylinder heads and all have performed great. I didn't remove a lot of material from the ports in these heads because I don't have a CNC Porting machine to duplicate results on all ports, nor did I have any means of finding out how thick the casting was. So instead, I removed material from key areas in the ports that showed to me to have the biggest impact on airflow, based on training and experience. Having driven the car AND driven a GXP with a stock LS4, I can assure you that this engine has picked up power everywhere in the RPM band vs. stock even after the weight difference of the Fiero vs. GXP is taken into account. Obviously a dyno test will verify this.

As far as the custom cam is concerned, at the time the engine was put together there was not a tested aftermarket cam available for it. I discussed with my customer the option of using his engine as a guinnee pig and trying out a then-untested, custom cam with the DoD system and he weighed that along with the prospect of having to spend more money on parts and further teardown of the engine and HE ultimately decided against it. But I can assure you the choices have been discussed and the decision to put the engine together as it is now was what the customer wanted considering the budget he told me he had to work with at the time. Now if he wants to pay me to pull it back out and install some aftermarket parts, I would be more than willing to do so.

This engine's life in the performance aftermarket is still relatively new. As time goes on, I'm sure more parts (and choices) will become available. So somebody building their LS4 today may not have all the choices for performance upgrades available that somebody building theirs a year or more from now will. So I'm sure it would be appreciated if you didn't knock somebody else's build months after the fact when you don't even know the budget and parts availability we had to work with for this project. It's easy to armchair-quarterback somebody else's build when it's not your money and it's not your car.

-ryan

Sinister Performance

Why? So we could have a manual trans out of a FWD car that had a 1st gear ratio that would have been worthless with this engine?

On paper, the new FWD 6-speeds Archie uses in his kits are stronger than the Fiero 5-speed getrags, but not by a lot. Nobody has found out just how much stronger they are in real-world testing either. I'm willing to bet this automatic would outlast the 6-speed in question at this power level; assuming the car is driven hard.

Besides, some kind of an adapter to relocate the starter would have been needed in order to use that 6-speed (and one would have need to be custom made from scratch which costs a lot of $$$); and if you were going to need adapters, why not just swap in an LS1 or LS2 instead of a smaller LS4?

Opinions are like (you know what) and everybody has one. Something you would like done to your car may not be compatible with someone else's wants or needs once a budget is factored in. There's a lot of things that COULD have been done in this swap if the customer have had endless funds, but that's not how it is. To tell the truth the owner of this car really wanted a manual transmission. So we discussed his options for this and their costs vs. using the 4T65-E TAPShift trans and HE made the decisions to do what was done.

BLKCOFY

I LOVE IT!!
You just have to be happy with a builder who puts everything into your car, like it was his own! I think Ryan takes more offense to flames and hater comments on this build than I do! Heck, wouldn't any of you that has put their all into something? And I absolutely love it! Who wouldn't??

I decided long ago when I finally convinced Ryan to share this build on the forums, that I would not take any comment personally, especially those that would inevitably come in the form of 'hatin'!! To be honest, many of the debates that have occured over this build, I actually appreciated, because it 1) showed me the passion that people have for their cars and this addictive habit we all share, and 2) always ends up with SOMEBODY learning something...usually myself. I tinker with cars...I don't do modern day engine and electronic swaps, so I'm constantly learning. I also trust Ryan 100%. My other car is a 2000 540i BMW that I've upgraded with performance and body parts from all over the world. It's a daily driver car, that is track seasoned. And you know what...I think my Fiero is going to end up kicking it's ***!

I've owned this car since July 1990 when I bought it from my dad for $7500. I've more than doubled that investment over the last 2 years, with much of that going into doing this build, but making smart choices and taking no short cuts. I think it would be awesome to be able to have my 6 year old daughter drive this to high school 10 years from now. So the choices I made...with my money...to my car...suited my situation and need which is to transform my garage car into a potential daily driver that will blow the doors off 80% of the cars on the road...including probably many of the folks that can't help themselves but to throw 'hatin' comments at the build! It's entertainment to me. Like I said, I was prepared for the hatin', and would be silly to take it personally...otherwise why would I share? But to be honest...I'm blown away by the more than overwhelming excitement and supporting comments this build has created as well. I feel like people, smart people who do this for a living, have even learned from this build. Hey, it's NEVER been done before!

So again, thank you for those that have welcomed me to the LS1Tech forum. And if there are honest questions about choices I've made, I'm more than willing to provide insight, as you may be struggling with the same question...or just curious. Was budget a factor? Yes, but not a limitation. I didn't want to spend money irresponsibly at this phase, as I have a wicked paint and detail plan in mind and didn't want to **** the wife off and end up either A) sleeping in the guest room, or B) find myself spending 'payback' money on some ridiculous item she wanted!

The thing everyone should know about Ryan (if you haven't figured it out by now) is that he stands 100% behind his work and has given me more than enough options and honest feedback on every crazy idea I've brought him. Like I said earlier, I've been following this forum since September, so i'm very aware of many of the issues that exist with the LS4 (that's why we went the porting route), and the transmission (that's why a practically brand new tranny got a $450 high end shift build invested into it). I've done my homework, for the most part. We've looked at every aftermarket option "currently" on the market, and decided to spend my money and Ryan's time on the best places with what's known today.

Love it or hate it...this car is going to be a beast...a reliable beast that is going to embarrass a few people, I think. At least until someone takes what Ryan has done, and ups it to the next level...and isn't that what it's all about?

So, please...continue to ask questions, share your thoughts, and even throw a few hater remarks if you must. Nothing...and I mean NOTHING is going to be able to peel the (*$#-face grin I'm going to have when I get this car on the road and race track!! Oh, and yes...I'm going to have this dyno'd immediately as it would be a crime if I didn't!