poll le2 vs ai 190 vs new trickflow
If I remeber correctly, the Install went bad and never gave the LE stuff a chance.
You guys are funny. WHAT RESULTS?????? AIs website???????
Bruce, Im not stuck with anything I could buy AI heads today and change them in my garage. Not worth it IMO.
Show me one similar car to mine, going faster or making more power. Proven time and time again?????? Show me the proof. Theres only one on this site and all in all he has less than 1mph in the 1/4 and hes using a 10bolt wich is worth way more than 1mph.
BTW I dont think my car is even close to the fastest Lt on this site or any other site, but it sure can hold its own against any similar AI package. I also have nothing against AI and love that they are also producing great products and pushing the envelope for us LTXers. Both companies put out killer products. In the end it boils down to customer service & to me Lloyd is top notch.
You guys are funny. WHAT RESULTS?????? AIs website???????
Bruce, Im not stuck with anything I could buy AI heads today and change them in my garage. Not worth it IMO.
Show me one similar car to mine, going faster or making more power. Proven time and time again?????? Show me the proof. Theres only one on this site and all in all he has less than 1mph in the 1/4 and hes using a 10bolt wich is worth way more than 1mph.
BTW I dont think my car is even close to the fastest Lt on this site or any other site, but it sure can hold its own against any similar AI package. I also have nothing against AI and love that they are also producing great products and pushing the envelope for us LTXers. Both companies put out killer products. In the end it boils down to customer service & to me Lloyd is top notch.
Let's also ignore the fact that I did indeed gain .2 and 2mph in the 1/4 and 25rwhp by swapping my LE2's with a ported intake to Ai 200's with an unported intake on the exact same setup in the same car.
problem isnt so much the heads.....
you could give alot of people here the best head on the planet and they wouldnt run worth a ****. problem is not taking everything into conmsideration as a package and sticking to a plan.
you could give alot of people here the best head on the planet and they wouldnt run worth a ****. problem is not taking everything into conmsideration as a package and sticking to a plan.
When the proper time is put into them hand porting beats CNC any day. The problem is that CNC porters can drop their prices and make heads quicker, so the hand porters are forced to either raise their prices and sell less, or spend less time on each head at the cost of performance. An ideal head, barring price, would be a repeatable CNC'd casting finished up by a skilled hand porter.
As for the unavoidable LE/AI crap, I'd say they are much similar then some would want you to think. IMO the AI 200s seem to be more comparable to the LE3s then the LE2s though. Its a shame the results are so skewed due to the low quality builds using just the heads and off the shelf cams, and the imitation heads floating around that were ported by Joe Blow but the seller dropped a big porters name on the for sale ad to trick buyers.
BTW: IBTL
As for the unavoidable LE/AI crap, I'd say they are much similar then some would want you to think. IMO the AI 200s seem to be more comparable to the LE3s then the LE2s though. Its a shame the results are so skewed due to the low quality builds using just the heads and off the shelf cams, and the imitation heads floating around that were ported by Joe Blow but the seller dropped a big porters name on the for sale ad to trick buyers.
BTW: IBTL
Case in point my old heads.
It was a h/c swap tuned by the same tuner, and yes to all of your other question considering I said "exact same setup" I even managed to cut the exact same 60' on both runs somehow down to the thousandth.
<flame suit>
I have no qualms with either vendor. But like gregrob and Pat, I went with AI for their consistency. CNC has several advantages over hand porting, more-so than hand porting over CNC. CNC eliminates direct human error, each port from head to head is IDENTICAL, and the combustion chambers are IDENTICAL (crucial for a consistent SCR/DCR from cylinder to cylinder).
Those last two sold me. Attached is a graph of an LE head (not my research), with each exhaust port flowed individually.
I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, so draw your own conclusions. IMO, if you want a head that will satisfy moderate HP goals, the LE heads can get you there. But if you want the top of the line ported stock castings, go with AI. The results speak for themselves.
About the customer service...if you went to McDonalds, ordered a burger with no pickles or onions, and had it ready and rung you up in no time, but your burger still had everything on it, would you be happy?
Even though I had no communication issues with AI like some people have complained about, I'd still rather sacrifice a little customer service as long as the product they deliver is head and shoulders above the rest.
</flame suit>
I have no qualms with either vendor. But like gregrob and Pat, I went with AI for their consistency. CNC has several advantages over hand porting, more-so than hand porting over CNC. CNC eliminates direct human error, each port from head to head is IDENTICAL, and the combustion chambers are IDENTICAL (crucial for a consistent SCR/DCR from cylinder to cylinder).
Those last two sold me. Attached is a graph of an LE head (not my research), with each exhaust port flowed individually.
I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, so draw your own conclusions. IMO, if you want a head that will satisfy moderate HP goals, the LE heads can get you there. But if you want the top of the line ported stock castings, go with AI. The results speak for themselves.
About the customer service...if you went to McDonalds, ordered a burger with no pickles or onions, and had it ready and rung you up in no time, but your burger still had everything on it, would you be happy?
Even though I had no communication issues with AI like some people have complained about, I'd still rather sacrifice a little customer service as long as the product they deliver is head and shoulders above the rest.
</flame suit>
This is the plain and simple truth.
Also, how old is that information? [graph]
-Dustin-
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I guess you need to tell all those race teams to stop cnc'n their heads then. Also to make any profit selling hand ported heads to the general public you won't be able to spend the proper amount of time porting them which results in a dramatic reduction in quality.
Case in point my old heads.
Case in point my old heads.
Just like mdacton said already, its the whole package that dictates how a car runs, not just the heads - as evidenced by your less then stellar 11.89 even though the car is making good power (no offense, I know its not a drag car).
Im sure there is no agenda with the graphs being posted. I mean seriously, we should all compare numbers at .800 lift and throw them on the boards for discussion. I am sure there is no ill intent here.
The problem I see is there have been far more under achieving LE packages and QC problems as evidenced by the pics and results that have been posted here and cz28.com in the past. Perhaps that has been improved upon or people are too loyal. I remember years ago some poor bastard got a pair of LE heads back from being worked on where the pinch area had been ground into the water jacket, welded up, welds were not cleaned up enough for a stock pushrod to clear as well as several valves being different lengths as well as different springs. It was comical to see. Wish I would've saved the pics. It was then I decided LE wasn't worth the trouble.
from .500 to .600 there is a pretty big difference........ I would say maybe 20hp worth or less. Is there a similar graph for the intake side?
About 168 +/- 6 points at .600 lift?
I am not justifying the above because I would agree that there should be no difference in the numbers.
I dont really have the knowledge to say how this will impact power. But I do know that posting the .800 lift numbers on the chart is an attempt to inflate the differences and to pour salt in the wounds.
Am I reading it right?
About 168 +/- 6 points at .600 lift?
I am not justifying the above because I would agree that there should be no difference in the numbers.
I dont really have the knowledge to say how this will impact power. But I do know that posting the .800 lift numbers on the chart is an attempt to inflate the differences and to pour salt in the wounds.
About 168 +/- 6 points at .600 lift?
I am not justifying the above because I would agree that there should be no difference in the numbers.
I dont really have the knowledge to say how this will impact power. But I do know that posting the .800 lift numbers on the chart is an attempt to inflate the differences and to pour salt in the wounds.
nothing will be perfect but trying to get them as close as possibly will help.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
i was in a huge debate over le2 and ai 190 heads. i placed a order for trickflow 185x heads at summit two weeks ago i couldt decide what way to go i was ready to send my heads out. i went to summit to get some parts by chance the heads just arrived so since im new to lt1 and couldt get over the debate im goona be one of the first to let you guys know how thy work. plus i have a year to decide were to send them for more porting unless i run 11s out of the box. im also gonna try 292xfi cam. with all supporting mods.
So your ported intake, e-wp, 4.10's, weight reduction, drag wheels, skinnies, ect aren't worth anything? Not to mention a 10 bolt with a suspension setup setup for the road course is defiantly is not worth "way more than 1 mph" since I have to basically bog it off the line which kills mph too.
Let's also ignore the fact that I did indeed gain .2 and 2mph in the 1/4 and 25rwhp by swapping my LE2's with a ported intake to Ai 200's with an unported intake on the exact same setup in the same car.
Let's also ignore the fact that I did indeed gain .2 and 2mph in the 1/4 and 25rwhp by swapping my LE2's with a ported intake to Ai 200's with an unported intake on the exact same setup in the same car.
IMO my mods that make any difference on the top end(EWP/Intake) are out weighed by your 10 bolt. With a 10bolt Im guessing my car would see more like 2-3mph increase. My car has barely any weight loss. My suspension was STOCK WS6 with all NON adjustable parts. Probably more road race than yours. **** I also run a clutch thats 20lbs heavier than any single disk. Thats 20lbs on the crank and dont 3.73s also dyno better than 4.10s?
Again I have never said anything remotely bad about AIs products. They make top notch stuff. I just chose LE as my guy and a still very happy with my choice to this day.
Am I reading it right?
About 168 +/- 6 points at .600 lift?
I am not justifying the above because I would agree that there should be no difference in the numbers.
I dont really have the knowledge to say how this will impact power. But I do know that posting the .800 lift numbers on the chart is an attempt to inflate the differences and to pour salt in the wounds.
About 168 +/- 6 points at .600 lift?
I am not justifying the above because I would agree that there should be no difference in the numbers.
I dont really have the knowledge to say how this will impact power. But I do know that posting the .800 lift numbers on the chart is an attempt to inflate the differences and to pour salt in the wounds.
I am willing to bet even a factory stock casting has close the the same 5-6cfm spread at .6".
Of course that will increase more and more as the lift goes up, but its pretty foolish posting cfm differences at .8" on a set of heads whose cam was probably .575
. Agreed, to the uninformed that graph is pretty misleading.
I am willing to bet even a factory stock casting has close the the same 5-6cfm spread at .6".
Of course that will increase more and more as the lift goes up, but its pretty foolish posting cfm differences at .8" on a set of heads whose cam was probably .575.
I am willing to bet even a factory stock casting has close the the same 5-6cfm spread at .6".
Of course that will increase more and more as the lift goes up, but its pretty foolish posting cfm differences at .8" on a set of heads whose cam was probably .575
.Im not saying in an all out ***** to the wall effort it wont. But most of the time its isnt going to be enough to amount to anything to lose sleep over. Far more important things
Show me one similar car to mine, going faster or making more power. Proven time and time again?????? Show me the proof. Theres only one on this site and all in all he has less than 1mph in the 1/4 and hes using a 10bolt wich is worth way more than 1mph.
BTW I dont think my car is even close to the fastest Lt on this site or any other site, but it sure can hold its own against any similar AI package. I also have nothing against AI and love that they are also producing great products and pushing the envelope for us LTXers. Both companies put out killer products. In the end it boils down to customer service & to me Lloyd is top notch.
BTW I dont think my car is even close to the fastest Lt on this site or any other site, but it sure can hold its own against any similar AI package. I also have nothing against AI and love that they are also producing great products and pushing the envelope for us LTXers. Both companies put out killer products. In the end it boils down to customer service & to me Lloyd is top notch.
How about we compare your car to mine.