valve spring 1.750???
05-03-2011, 05:17 PM
#1
valve spring 1.750??? i bought a summit racing valve height micrometer. Im fairly sure im using it correctly. basically use everything but the new valve springs right?
Im making sure its seated the best i can and im comming up with a installed valve spring height of 1.740-1.750. I need to be at 1.780. Im using the retainers/keepers/bases that are included in my patriot performance 8501-bsbc kit. The stock bases seem to be shorter, but i dont think they work with dual spring valve springs.
I bought a shim kit expecting to be above 1.780 not below it. Can i let it fly or is the spring pressure to high at 1.750? @ 1.800 its 155lbs, @ 1.140 its 410lbs. Coil bind is at 1.090, with my cam and 1.740 install height im at 1.134. I was told to install them at 1.780.
This is my first time doing this, i assume i need a base to keep the valve spring from moving to close to the valve seal/valve and getting caught? or do you just run the shim instead of the base?
any help or ideas would be great, id like to get these installed this week.
Im making sure its seated the best i can and im comming up with a installed valve spring height of 1.740-1.750. I need to be at 1.780. Im using the retainers/keepers/bases that are included in my patriot performance 8501-bsbc kit. The stock bases seem to be shorter, but i dont think they work with dual spring valve springs.
I bought a shim kit expecting to be above 1.780 not below it. Can i let it fly or is the spring pressure to high at 1.750? @ 1.800 its 155lbs, @ 1.140 its 410lbs. Coil bind is at 1.090, with my cam and 1.740 install height im at 1.134. I was told to install them at 1.780.
This is my first time doing this, i assume i need a base to keep the valve spring from moving to close to the valve seal/valve and getting caught? or do you just run the shim instead of the base?
any help or ideas would be great, id like to get these installed this week.
Last edited by trilkb; 05-03-2011 at 05:24 PM.
05-03-2011, 05:39 PM
#2
1. always run a spring locator (base)
2. "most" astermarket springs spec a installed height of 1.800" so machineing down the spring pockets on the heads is done. Then adding shims is often done to get the height exactly at 1.8"
stock heads are 1.750"
your open & seat pressure will be higher as a result of the lower installed height.
Contact Patriot and ask if the lower install height will compromise the spring function with your cam specs
With that said many people run bee hive springs spec to install at 1.800" without machineing the spring pockets down at a 1.750ish height without issues
2. "most" astermarket springs spec a installed height of 1.800" so machineing down the spring pockets on the heads is done. Then adding shims is often done to get the height exactly at 1.8"
stock heads are 1.750"
your open & seat pressure will be higher as a result of the lower installed height.
Contact Patriot and ask if the lower install height will compromise the spring function with your cam specs
With that said many people run bee hive springs spec to install at 1.800" without machineing the spring pockets down at a 1.750ish height without issues
05-03-2011, 05:39 PM
#3
Mine is tricky to use. The measured height is from the very bottom to the very top. Is your retainer going in the top of the gauge? Are you sure it's not riding on the inner valve spring part of the retainer? You can check the height with a regular 6 inch scale. Just put the retainer on and pull up with your finger and measure it with a scale like this:
http://store-planetools.com/6stainle...inistrule.aspx
Al
http://store-planetools.com/6stainle...inistrule.aspx
Al
05-03-2011, 05:54 PM
#4
**** me...you're right, my retainer isnt sitting all the way down in the valve height micrometer, its getting hung up on the outter edge. The stock ones fall right in.
hmmm...now what?
Anyone know the measurement of the lip and i can just add it into the equation? I found someone claiming it as .140. I double checked and my micrometer is reading 1.750 on the dot. adding .140 would set it to 1.890?
this is garbage, why cant people make a tool that works!
edit again: I set the tool to 1.640, .140 away from my desired height, and added shims, Its looking like i need a .060 and a .015 shim. Does this sound right?
hmmm...now what?
Anyone know the measurement of the lip and i can just add it into the equation? I found someone claiming it as .140. I double checked and my micrometer is reading 1.750 on the dot. adding .140 would set it to 1.890?
this is garbage, why cant people make a tool that works!
edit again: I set the tool to 1.640, .140 away from my desired height, and added shims, Its looking like i need a .060 and a .015 shim. Does this sound right?
Last edited by trilkb; 05-03-2011 at 06:47 PM.
05-03-2011, 06:51 PM
#5
the tool is designed so the retainer sits "on top", it has a recess so the part of the retainer that goes inside the spring fits in it. If you use bee hive springs sometimes those retainers go "inside" the tool so you need a washer to bring the bottom of the retainer = to the top "lip" of the tool. Your patriot springs sound like they are standard size "dual" springs so the retainer bottom should sit on the "lip" of the tool. If you have a small ruler accurate in measureing .10 than you can also compare readings with it against the spring install height tool if you want.
it sounds like your retainers are fitting correctly as they should sit on the "lip", not inside it.
you do not need a "**** ton of shims" to get your springs right...you need to machine the spring pockets down to get a installed height of more than 1.750" on stock heads. Once that machineing is done you may need .005 or a combination of shims .xxx" to get the correct height.
Basically any spring that requires a higher installed height more than 1.750" means the spring pockets need to be machined.
as I posted earlier many people do run springs designed for 1.800" installed height on stock heads without issue. Yes open & seat pressure will be more than "spec" for that spring and you will be "closer" to coil bind specs with a spring installed shorter but if you are not running a cam with very high lift (.575 or more) than coil bind "should" not be a issue.
IMHO I would run a spring designed for 1.750" or have your spring pockets machined down...then again who cares about .050" when it comes to valve train tolerances...
it sounds like your retainers are fitting correctly as they should sit on the "lip", not inside it.
you do not need a "**** ton of shims" to get your springs right...you need to machine the spring pockets down to get a installed height of more than 1.750" on stock heads. Once that machineing is done you may need .005 or a combination of shims .xxx" to get the correct height.
Basically any spring that requires a higher installed height more than 1.750" means the spring pockets need to be machined.
as I posted earlier many people do run springs designed for 1.800" installed height on stock heads without issue. Yes open & seat pressure will be more than "spec" for that spring and you will be "closer" to coil bind specs with a spring installed shorter but if you are not running a cam with very high lift (.575 or more) than coil bind "should" not be a issue.
IMHO I would run a spring designed for 1.750" or have your spring pockets machined down...then again who cares about .050" when it comes to valve train tolerances...
Last edited by BALLSS; 05-04-2011 at 11:14 AM.
05-03-2011, 06:58 PM
#6
hahahaha...well im fucked then. its game over.
Heads are on the car, and not comming off. i assume they need to come off to get machined.
I emailed lloyd elliot, he designed the cam, hopefully he will tell me if 1.750 will work or not. If not i just wasted a **** load of money and time.
Guess i better start laughing so i dont cry.
Heads are on the car, and not comming off. i assume they need to come off to get machined.
I emailed lloyd elliot, he designed the cam, hopefully he will tell me if 1.750 will work or not. If not i just wasted a **** load of money and time.
Guess i better start laughing so i dont cry.
05-03-2011, 07:12 PM
#7
you more than likely will be fine with installing those springs at 1.750-1.775 unless Lloyd says otherwise. It just means open and seat pressure will be more than if they were installed at 1.800".
Crane makes a spring kit # 10308-1 as a "replacement" set for AL heads. They may not be the best spring selection for your cam but they do install at 1.750"
yes the heads do need to be off the car to machine them
Crane makes a spring kit # 10308-1 as a "replacement" set for AL heads. They may not be the best spring selection for your cam but they do install at 1.750"
yes the heads do need to be off the car to machine them
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05-03-2011, 07:39 PM
#8
he said to install @ 1.780, the only number i can get is 1.750, so its .030 not .250 of a difference.
Im not an expert at this, its my first time doing it myself. But i dont know what 1.750 will do to this cam vs 1.780. Technically they weaken over time too.
I dont know if its worth measureing another valve? i would imagine its the same number as this one but who knows.
@ 1.750 installed height (minus .606 cam lift & 1.090 coil bind) im .054 away from coil bind. I read you shouldnt be under .050, so im good there...slightly. Im just worried if the cam can take the added pressure.
waiting to hear from lloyd, i hope it works, jesus do i hope!
Im not an expert at this, its my first time doing it myself. But i dont know what 1.750 will do to this cam vs 1.780. Technically they weaken over time too.
I dont know if its worth measureing another valve? i would imagine its the same number as this one but who knows.
@ 1.750 installed height (minus .606 cam lift & 1.090 coil bind) im .054 away from coil bind. I read you shouldnt be under .050, so im good there...slightly. Im just worried if the cam can take the added pressure.
waiting to hear from lloyd, i hope it works, jesus do i hope!
05-03-2011, 08:07 PM
#9
Spring pressure increases 12lbs at 1.750 vs 1.780, im not sure if thats a major deal or not?
seat pressure closed would be 174lbs vs 162.5 lbs
open would be 410lbs vs 398lbs.
IS 12lbs of pressure a huge deal?
also ill be running .656 lift on a .660 lift spring... didnt realize that either till now. How much does the spring base matter? if i could find one .010 thinner i think id be ok?
seat pressure closed would be 174lbs vs 162.5 lbs
open would be 410lbs vs 398lbs.
IS 12lbs of pressure a huge deal?
also ill be running .656 lift on a .660 lift spring... didnt realize that either till now. How much does the spring base matter? if i could find one .010 thinner i think id be ok?
Last edited by trilkb; 05-03-2011 at 08:16 PM.
05-03-2011, 11:43 PM
#10
you will be good with those #'s on 1.750 installed height. you would not need any shims under the spring locators since your earlier measurement was 1.75x".
no need to try and find a thiner spring locator (base)
good oppertunity to replace valve stem seals while you are in there.
since the heads are on the car stuff rags in the various openings of heads in case you drop any parts (locks). I found using a pencil magnet very helpfull in retrieveing the locks from the existing springs.
I found the Crane tool # 99473-1 VERY good in removing/installing springs with heads on the car.
you can use compressed air via spark plug hole to hold up valve or use this method:
take #1 cyl to TDC and swap both springs on #1 & #6 cyl. rotate engine by hand 1/4 turn (90 degrees) and do cyl 5 & 8, turn 1/4 turn again and do cyl 7 & 4 and 1/4 turn more and do cyl 3 & 2
the valve will drop about 1/4" or so but not far. I found the valve stem seal holds them up or you can just pull them back up with your fingers
no need to try and find a thiner spring locator (base)
good oppertunity to replace valve stem seals while you are in there.
since the heads are on the car stuff rags in the various openings of heads in case you drop any parts (locks). I found using a pencil magnet very helpfull in retrieveing the locks from the existing springs.
I found the Crane tool # 99473-1 VERY good in removing/installing springs with heads on the car.
you can use compressed air via spark plug hole to hold up valve or use this method:
take #1 cyl to TDC and swap both springs on #1 & #6 cyl. rotate engine by hand 1/4 turn (90 degrees) and do cyl 5 & 8, turn 1/4 turn again and do cyl 7 & 4 and 1/4 turn more and do cyl 3 & 2
the valve will drop about 1/4" or so but not far. I found the valve stem seal holds them up or you can just pull them back up with your fingers
Last edited by BALLSS; 05-04-2011 at 11:06 AM.
05-04-2011, 06:53 PM
#11
LE said the 8501 @ 1.750 is to much pressure, the 8401 @ 1.750 is a better choice.
Im .006 over max lift, but im .044 away from coil bind, so they should work out alright.
thunderracing will be sending me some 8401-bsbc springs when my 8501-bsbc's get to em...
Problem solved
WHEW
I will say this, im kinda depressed i dont get to run patriots top notch spring lol.
Im .006 over max lift, but im .044 away from coil bind, so they should work out alright.
thunderracing will be sending me some 8401-bsbc springs when my 8501-bsbc's get to em...
Problem solved
WHEW
I will say this, im kinda depressed i dont get to run patriots top notch spring lol.
