"So you think you want a 6 speed manual transmission ?" Article from external website
05-23-2014, 01:40 PM
#1
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
"So you think you want a 6 speed manual transmission ?" Article from external website Interesting read...came across this article. Just curious if anybody finds truth in this article ?
http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/6speed.htm
"Here at RPM Motorsports, we spend our days hunting all over the United States looking for good Camaros and Firebirds to offer our customers. We test drive every decent f-body we can get our hands on. Having said that, we have an almost impossible time finding 6-Speed cars that have perfectly functioning 6-speed transmissions. Most all are damaged. At this point in time, January 2010, approx. 80-85% of all the 6-speeds we drive have damaged, grinding, screwed up transmissions. As time goes on, this percentage gets higher. For the most part, the good ones we find are in 1-Owner 01-02 cars with zero mods and 50K miles or less. The older the car and the more mods, the greater the chance of the 6-speed transmission being damaged.
A little history on the Borg Warner Tremec T-56 6-Speed Transmission. Originally, the T-56 was developed and built by Borg Warner. These transmissions were of decent quality and are found in the 93-97 LT-1 cars. Sometime around 1997, Borg Warner sold the T-56 out to a company called Tremec. Tremec began building the T-56 transmissions in Mexico out of inferior parts with cheap/weak synchros and gears. Every 6-Speed transmission you find in an LS1 Camaro, Firebird or Corvette is a cheaply built Mexican Tremec T-56.
The Tremec T56 6-Speed transmission has extremely!!!!! weak synchos. Any kind of speed shifting or high rpm misshifts will wear the synchros out quickly and cause the transmission to grind, pop out of gear, or make high rpm shifts hang. Repairing or rebuilding a T56 will cost between $1500 and $3000........ if you can find anyone who knows how. It takes special tooks to disassemble a T-56 transmission, tools that most shops don't have. Additionally, T-56 parts are extremely expensive. For this reason, nobody fixes them, they just sell off their broken cars and that's what you have today.......... most of the 6-speeds for sale as having problems.
Contributing to this problem is the clutch hydraulic system. As the 6-Speed cars get older and higher in mileage, the clutch slave and master cylinders start getting weak. As the hydraulic system gets weak, the cluch will have a harder time engaging. This also contributes to wearing out the weak T-56 synchros. We've seen several 6-speed cars that drive fine when cold but after a good 15 minute drive, the heat from the engine heats up the clutch slave cylinder which then begins bypassing fluid. At that point, shifts become difficult as the clutch is not fully engaging or disengaging. Once again........ contributing to synchro wear.
The automatic transmissions are pretty much bulletproof with a 3.06 first gear compared to the 2.66 first gear in the 6-speed. The automatic actually has more gearing off the line. The 6 speeds are NOT any faster than the automatics. You put 2 average drivers in identical cars, 1 auto/1 6-spd, send them to the drap strip and let them make 10 runs against each other...... the automatic is going to win 9 times out of 10 because of the gearing, ease of use/launch while the guy with the 6 speed spins the tires and misses an occasional high rpm shift. If you plan on doing any racing whatsoever or driving these cars like were intended to be used for, it would be very smart to go with the automatic. The automatic will last for a very long time while the 6-speed will break if raced or driven hard.
Further proof of the automatic transmission's superiority can be found in the 2005 Pontiac GTO catalog. The GTO uses the same automatic and Tremec T-56 6-Speed as the Z-28 and Trans Am(Corvette too). Pontiac's own performance figures for the 2005 LS-2 powered GTO are as follows:
Automatic: 0-60 4.6 Seconds, 1/4 mile 13.0 @ 108 mph
6-Speed: 0-60 4.7 Seconds, 1/4 mile 13.1 @ 108 mph
Having said all that, we realize that many of you are die-hard 6-Speed fanatics and will not even look at an automatic. When you come to RPM Motorsports, you can be guaranteed that any 6-Speed transmission Camaro, Firebird or Corvette on our lot will function perfectly without any of the problems you will find on most every other 6-Speed car anywhere else. If you find a 6-Speed car on another local car lot, we've probably seen it, driven it, and passed on it. We try to buy every good one we can get our hands on. Most other dealers have no in depth knowlege of these cars and have no clue what they are buying or what to check for when looking at a 6-Speed car. We see unknowledgeable dealers overpay for bad 6-Speeds every single week and get stuck with cars needing $2000-$3000 worth of transmission work. In fact, we see it so much, we know pretty much every 6-Speed car around as unknowledgeable dealers buy them, get stuck with them, bring them back to dealer sales and the process starts all over again. We see the same cars again and again at sales and know their problems. We've lived, breathed, raced, owned and driven these cars for over 25 years and when it comes to 6-Speeds, we've been through it all and know what to look for.
Update: July 2009
We have only seen one 6-Speed car in Oklahoma so far this year in 2009 with a correctly functioning transmission ! The few we have had came from out of state. We highly recommend that any customer looking for a 6-Speed LS-1 car have an additional $2000 set back for tranmission repairs.
Update: The Year of 2010
In the entire year of 2010, we only saw 1 6-Speed LS-1 car with an OK shifting transmission. It wasn't great but it was OK.
Update: January 2011
Unfreakingbelievable !!!! We found a virgin adult owned 1-owner 80K mile 6-Speed LS-1 Formula Firebird with the slickest shifting Hurst 6-Speed we have driven in years ! I doubt we will ever see one this slick under $10,000 again.(Sold in 1 day) "
http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/6speed.htm
"Here at RPM Motorsports, we spend our days hunting all over the United States looking for good Camaros and Firebirds to offer our customers. We test drive every decent f-body we can get our hands on. Having said that, we have an almost impossible time finding 6-Speed cars that have perfectly functioning 6-speed transmissions. Most all are damaged. At this point in time, January 2010, approx. 80-85% of all the 6-speeds we drive have damaged, grinding, screwed up transmissions. As time goes on, this percentage gets higher. For the most part, the good ones we find are in 1-Owner 01-02 cars with zero mods and 50K miles or less. The older the car and the more mods, the greater the chance of the 6-speed transmission being damaged.
A little history on the Borg Warner Tremec T-56 6-Speed Transmission. Originally, the T-56 was developed and built by Borg Warner. These transmissions were of decent quality and are found in the 93-97 LT-1 cars. Sometime around 1997, Borg Warner sold the T-56 out to a company called Tremec. Tremec began building the T-56 transmissions in Mexico out of inferior parts with cheap/weak synchros and gears. Every 6-Speed transmission you find in an LS1 Camaro, Firebird or Corvette is a cheaply built Mexican Tremec T-56.
The Tremec T56 6-Speed transmission has extremely!!!!! weak synchos. Any kind of speed shifting or high rpm misshifts will wear the synchros out quickly and cause the transmission to grind, pop out of gear, or make high rpm shifts hang. Repairing or rebuilding a T56 will cost between $1500 and $3000........ if you can find anyone who knows how. It takes special tooks to disassemble a T-56 transmission, tools that most shops don't have. Additionally, T-56 parts are extremely expensive. For this reason, nobody fixes them, they just sell off their broken cars and that's what you have today.......... most of the 6-speeds for sale as having problems.
Contributing to this problem is the clutch hydraulic system. As the 6-Speed cars get older and higher in mileage, the clutch slave and master cylinders start getting weak. As the hydraulic system gets weak, the cluch will have a harder time engaging. This also contributes to wearing out the weak T-56 synchros. We've seen several 6-speed cars that drive fine when cold but after a good 15 minute drive, the heat from the engine heats up the clutch slave cylinder which then begins bypassing fluid. At that point, shifts become difficult as the clutch is not fully engaging or disengaging. Once again........ contributing to synchro wear.
The automatic transmissions are pretty much bulletproof with a 3.06 first gear compared to the 2.66 first gear in the 6-speed. The automatic actually has more gearing off the line. The 6 speeds are NOT any faster than the automatics. You put 2 average drivers in identical cars, 1 auto/1 6-spd, send them to the drap strip and let them make 10 runs against each other...... the automatic is going to win 9 times out of 10 because of the gearing, ease of use/launch while the guy with the 6 speed spins the tires and misses an occasional high rpm shift. If you plan on doing any racing whatsoever or driving these cars like were intended to be used for, it would be very smart to go with the automatic. The automatic will last for a very long time while the 6-speed will break if raced or driven hard.
Further proof of the automatic transmission's superiority can be found in the 2005 Pontiac GTO catalog. The GTO uses the same automatic and Tremec T-56 6-Speed as the Z-28 and Trans Am(Corvette too). Pontiac's own performance figures for the 2005 LS-2 powered GTO are as follows:
Automatic: 0-60 4.6 Seconds, 1/4 mile 13.0 @ 108 mph
6-Speed: 0-60 4.7 Seconds, 1/4 mile 13.1 @ 108 mph
Having said all that, we realize that many of you are die-hard 6-Speed fanatics and will not even look at an automatic. When you come to RPM Motorsports, you can be guaranteed that any 6-Speed transmission Camaro, Firebird or Corvette on our lot will function perfectly without any of the problems you will find on most every other 6-Speed car anywhere else. If you find a 6-Speed car on another local car lot, we've probably seen it, driven it, and passed on it. We try to buy every good one we can get our hands on. Most other dealers have no in depth knowlege of these cars and have no clue what they are buying or what to check for when looking at a 6-Speed car. We see unknowledgeable dealers overpay for bad 6-Speeds every single week and get stuck with cars needing $2000-$3000 worth of transmission work. In fact, we see it so much, we know pretty much every 6-Speed car around as unknowledgeable dealers buy them, get stuck with them, bring them back to dealer sales and the process starts all over again. We see the same cars again and again at sales and know their problems. We've lived, breathed, raced, owned and driven these cars for over 25 years and when it comes to 6-Speeds, we've been through it all and know what to look for.
Update: July 2009
We have only seen one 6-Speed car in Oklahoma so far this year in 2009 with a correctly functioning transmission ! The few we have had came from out of state. We highly recommend that any customer looking for a 6-Speed LS-1 car have an additional $2000 set back for tranmission repairs.
Update: The Year of 2010
In the entire year of 2010, we only saw 1 6-Speed LS-1 car with an OK shifting transmission. It wasn't great but it was OK.
Update: January 2011
Unfreakingbelievable !!!! We found a virgin adult owned 1-owner 80K mile 6-Speed LS-1 Formula Firebird with the slickest shifting Hurst 6-Speed we have driven in years ! I doubt we will ever see one this slick under $10,000 again.(Sold in 1 day) "
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Bengtson95 (05-01-2021)
05-23-2014, 08:43 PM
#6
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Ah yes, I remember seeing that a few years ago. I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on there business but the t56 portion seems to be bs to me. I've been to their business a couple of times and they have very nice f bodies that come through.
There is nothing special about a t56. I rebuilt my first one last year and didn't really know what I was doing. Pretty easy if you ask me, and no special tools were needed. Unless a couple types of snap ring pliers and a cheap "custom" gear puller seem too exotic...
I sorta thought they put that on their site so people would quit asking them about 6 speed cars they can't find to resale and convince them to buy their automatic cars lol. I am probably way off base here, but again they do have some of the cleanest f bodies I've seen around here I'll give them that.
There is nothing special about a t56. I rebuilt my first one last year and didn't really know what I was doing. Pretty easy if you ask me, and no special tools were needed. Unless a couple types of snap ring pliers and a cheap "custom" gear puller seem too exotic...
I sorta thought they put that on their site so people would quit asking them about 6 speed cars they can't find to resale and convince them to buy their automatic cars lol. I am probably way off base here, but again they do have some of the cleanest f bodies I've seen around here I'll give them that.
05-23-2014, 09:06 PM
#7
Wow and there local to me. No problems with my M6 but then again i bought it with under 50,000 miles and it only had around 3 owners. Very curious though of how true this article is, which im afraid it probably is by hearing how many bad syncro trannys on m6 cars in here on the for sale section but i hope my assumption is wrong. Sub'd!
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05-24-2014, 12:14 PM
#8
It seems they are exaggerating, but reading the M6 forum makes it clear that the problems they describe are rampant. I agree that overall the automatics are a more reliable unit, but I wouldn't go as far as "bulletproof." At any time, plenty of threads can be found on the A4 forum describing 3-4 clutch pack failures.
The two M6 cars I have owned, as well as my brother's, have pretty much shifted flawlessly. The comment about the virgin 80k Formula in the article would apply to my car at 89k. But as they say, apparently the previous owner(s) didn't beat on it; nor do I. I save the beating for my A4 car. Its tranny has also performed flawlessly.
The two M6 cars I have owned, as well as my brother's, have pretty much shifted flawlessly. The comment about the virgin 80k Formula in the article would apply to my car at 89k. But as they say, apparently the previous owner(s) didn't beat on it; nor do I. I save the beating for my A4 car. Its tranny has also performed flawlessly.
05-24-2014, 12:36 PM
#9
While it's undoubtedly true that a lot of six speeds have been "rode hard and put away wet", I think this article was also generated by market conditions. There is much greater demand for six speeds, yet there are far more good condition automatic cars out there. So at any given time, these guys have far more automatics for sale. Hence the attempt to persuade the six speed minded customer to consider an automatic.
05-24-2014, 01:06 PM
#10
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I used to have a black 02 z28 M6 that had around 18k on it when I bought it. Car was immaculate and drove great but a few months after I bought it the syncro's went bad on 3rd gear and it just popped out of gear every time I went to 3rd. I didn't beat on the car before that but all i can guess is the previous owner drove the crap out of it. Still I was shocked and it cost me over 2k to get a reman trans because that was cheaper than having it rebuilt. My current F body has 108k on it and no trans issues at all. This article was interesting because I didn't know that tremec started using different parts after 1997.
05-24-2014, 03:20 PM
#11
Considering that they only have 1 t56 fbody for sale, im guessing they might be trying to steer customers into buying an auto instead. Im also claiming BS on this article
05-24-2014, 04:34 PM
#12
Staging Lane
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Ive never bought a manual tranny and wished i had an automatic..... but i sure as hell have bought an automatic and wished i had a manual. My last Vette was a good example of that, i liked the auto but i would have traded it for a 6-speed in a heartbeat!!
05-24-2014, 05:15 PM
#14
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I enjoy the added 5mpg on the highway. I also probably wouldn't have been able to drive my car this winter in all of that snow in fear of the car suddenly shifting down on hills and spinning or something. This is my only car.
That said, somethings not right with it and the clutch isn't always grabbing properly or something but I'm still in college and don't have the money to fix it.
That said, somethings not right with it and the clutch isn't always grabbing properly or something but I'm still in college and don't have the money to fix it.
05-24-2014, 08:31 PM
#15
Guys, this has been a good thread, but let's keep the discussion on the merits of the article, and not let it degenerate into a A4 vs. M6 debate. We have a certain Admin who hates such threads, and who will certainly shut it down if it goes in that direction.
05-25-2014, 09:56 AM
#16
TECH Junkie
A car club member here has a 75,000+ miles '99 Trans Am that has never had any tranny or clutch work. It is a highway miles car and the owner is over 70 YOA. So many factors are involved in finding the 'sweet' cars. There is no reason why his 6 speed won't last right into the 6 figure mileage range with NO work being done to it.
05-25-2014, 10:59 AM
#17
I think one of the major issues with the 6 speed cars are the owners who have no business driving a stick. Any 6 speed can be fucked up by some boss hog who doesn't know what the **** he's doing. If you know what you're doing, don't abuse it, and maintenace it, it will last forever.
05-25-2014, 01:21 PM
#18
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^ I agree. I'm sure there are a lot of issues with a lot of the 6 speeds out there, but a lot of it is probably because of some people that don't know how to drive it properly and just screw it up. But like someone else said further up, just get a tick master cylinder. When I was looking for my ws6 I wouldn't even look at an automatic. The manuals may be more trouble be they're so worth it.
05-25-2014, 09:02 PM
#19
^ I agree. I'm sure there are a lot of issues with a lot of the 6 speeds out there, but a lot of it is probably because of some people that don't know how to drive it properly and just screw it up. But like someone else said further up, just get a tick master cylinder. When I was looking for my ws6 I wouldn't even look at an automatic. The manuals may be more trouble be they're so worth it.
05-25-2014, 09:54 PM
#20
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Tick Master here and a Monster stage 3 and it's as potent as a mother you know what. 450 rwhp aint got nothing on it. All I can say is all you *** clowns that can't drive a stick like your girl can, come get you some and watch your auotomatic get it handed to them like your girls handles my stick.