1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

I know this is long, but anyone looking to buy some valve cover spacers should read this.

I recently purchased a set of valve cover spacers from a board member named Phil for $175. This was against my better judgment because they did not include the necessary installation hardware and I really didn’t want to pay more than $150, but Phil said he already had someone else wanting to buy them for $200 if I didn’t take them. So, since I was already going to Houston to pick up some other stuff, I went ahead and bought them thinking I could obtain the stand-offs and o-rings easily and inexpensively. NOT SO! These stand-offs do not exist in a mass produced form in aluminum, stainless steel, zinc coated steel, or anything else that I have been able to determine, and I checked all over the state of Texas and in several other states. Finally, when I found out More Performance sells the spacers, I checked with them but they do not keep the parts in stock, they have to have them made special. They sell the stand-offs and o-rings together for $80. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

When I found this out I immediately contacted Phil to let him know of the problems I was having. He told me that he would 1) send me back $20 or 2) refund my money and I could ship the spacers back to him. I tried to negotiate for $40 (half the cost of the parts) but this was not acceptable to him, so I told him that if he would not meet me half way, I would like to take option number 2 and get my money back. Then he tells me that he was selling them for someone else (a guy he knows named Brent who owns some shop in Houston) and I would have to contact him. This was after he had already made statements like “I have been offered $200 from another guy but since u wanna pick them up I would let them go for $175. This is my best price I can do...Let me know..” and “I was just selling what I had and paid more than that” and “I’m already losing money here”? <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />

Well I contacted Brent and he told me they sell those spacers all the time for $250 with no hardware. I told him I could get a complete set from More Performance with warranty for that. He didn’t care and was not going to refund my money either. I could not understand why he wouldn’t refund my $175 if he has no problem selling them for $250; he was obviously lying. <img border="0" alt="[shoot]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" />

Then I get this email from another board member, Ethan Melloul (aka MastaAce98) who is one of the administrators with the Houston F-body organization and is apparently another friend of Phil’s, telling me that the deal was done when I handed Phil the money after examining the spacers and basically he told me, sorry, buddy, you should have known better and that if I posted this warning to other board members I would just look like a fool.

I agree that legally Phil has no further obligation to me, but I think he had a moral obligation to be totally honest and up-front with me about whom I was actually dealing with. Also, since he is the one that told me he would refund my money, and by his own account can resell them for at least $200, he should show a little integrity and honor his own words. I for one would never sell anything to anybody that I was not willing to stand behind 100% and make sure the other guy was satisfied and, if he was not satisfied, I would do anything within reason to make it right including refunding his money if we could not come to a satisfactory arrangement.

While I won’t go so far as to label this as a “scam”, there was definitely some deception, misleading statements, and questionable trade practices involved. So I’ll take the risk of appearing foolish and warn you guys to watch out and don’t get burned like I did.

1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

I know this is long, but anyone looking to buy some valve cover spacers should read this.

I recently purchased a set of valve cover spacers from a board member named Phil for $175. This was against my better judgment because they did not include the necessary installation hardware and I really didn’t want to pay more than $150, but Phil said he already had someone else wanting to buy them for $200 if I didn’t take them. So, since I was already going to Houston to pick up some other stuff, I went ahead and bought them thinking I could obtain the stand-offs and o-rings easily and inexpensively. NOT SO! These stand-offs do not exist in a mass produced form in aluminum, stainless steel, zinc coated steel, or anything else that I have been able to determine, and I checked all over the state of Texas and in several other states. Finally, when I found out More Performance sells the spacers, I checked with them but they do not keep the parts in stock, they have to have them made special. They sell the stand-offs and o-rings together for $80. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" />

When I found this out I immediately contacted Phil to let him know of the problems I was having. He told me that he would 1) send me back $20 or 2) refund my money and I could ship the spacers back to him. I tried to negotiate for $40 (half the cost of the parts) but this was not acceptable to him, so I told him that if he would not meet me half way, I would like to take option number 2 and get my money back. Then he tells me that he was selling them for someone else (a guy he knows named Brent who owns some shop in Houston) and I would have to contact him. This was after he had already made statements like “I have been offered $200 from another guy but since u wanna pick them up I would let them go for $175. This is my best price I can do...Let me know..” and “I was just selling what I had and paid more than that” and “I’m already losing money here”? <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" />

Well I contacted Brent and he told me they sell those spacers all the time for $250 with no hardware. I told him I could get a complete set from More Performance with warranty for that. He didn’t care and was not going to refund my money either. I could not understand why he wouldn’t refund my $175 if he has no problem selling them for $250; he was obviously lying. <img border="0" alt="[shoot]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" />

Then I get this email from another board member, Ethan Melloul (aka MastaAce98) who is one of the administrators with the Houston F-body organization and is apparently another friend of Phil’s, telling me that the deal was done when I handed Phil the money after examining the spacers and basically he told me, sorry, buddy, you should have known better and that if I posted this warning to other board members I would just look like a fool.

I agree that legally Phil has no further obligation to me, but I think he had a moral obligation to be totally honest and up-front with me about whom I was actually dealing with. Also, since he is the one that told me he would refund my money, and by his own account can resell them for at least $200, he should show a little integrity and honor his own words. I for one would never sell anything to anybody that I was not willing to stand behind 100% and make sure the other guy was satisfied and, if he was not satisfied, I would do anything within reason to make it right including refunding his money if we could not come to a satisfactory arrangement.

While I won’t go so far as to label this as a “scam”, there was definitely some deception, misleading statements, and questionable trade practices involved. So I’ll take the risk of appearing foolish and warn you guys to watch out and don’t get burned like I did.

horist

so you inspected the parts, knew they weren't going to include the hardware, bought them anyways and when you changed your mind expect to get your money back?

Sounds like you should have done some more research before you bought them... I don't see how this "Phil" guy is at any fault...

But then again this is America... everything's always someone else's fault <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: horist ]</small>

1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

It was Phil that told me I could have my money back and I really only wanted him to meet me half-way on the parts; $40. Since that was not acceptable to him I opted for option #2 and he renegged on his offer and changed his whole story. If the shoe were on the other foot, and I had another buyer willing to give me $200, I would take them back in a heartbeat and make another $25. He was lying to me about the other buyer the whole time trying to goad me into paying more than I really wanted to and, unfortunately, I fell for it thinking I could get the parts locally and inexpensively which was not the case.

I have already come to the realization that he never had any intention of giving my money back and if I had known what vendor was selling them ahead of time, I certainly would have checked first to see what the parts were going to cost me. I am just warning other people to be aware of the cost of the parts and not give in to the "if you don't take it, the other guy will" pressure. It can cause you to make rash decisions that you may regret later.

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

Tom Guiles (since you decided to post my name),

First of all, I can't believe that you went as far as posting something like this. But, let's go ahead and let me point out all of the flaws in your story.

1) Phil did Brent a favor and sold something for him on the Internet. Whether or not it is Phil's is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

2) You paid for valve cover spacers which you PHYSICALLY INSPECTED and picked up IN PERSON. You AGREED to pay $175 for the spacers. You KNEW that they did not come with any hardware, and purchased them anyway.

3) You asked Phil for $50, not $40 (which I have proof of). Nowhere in your dealings with Phil did you ask for $40 (which you can prove), making you a liar.

Let me also point out something else. When you wanted to purchase the valve cover spacers, you originally wanted to pay $150 for them. Phil did not agree to that, and wanted $175 (which is fine, you agreed to pay it). Now, if he were to give you the valve cover spacers for $150, that's only $25 off of $175. After you have the spacers in hand and call over town trying to get O-Rings/Fasteners you ask for $50?!?!? What kind of sense does that make? That would make the original purchase price $125, which is $25 from the original $150 you wanted to pay for them.

It comes down to this Tom. You're a guy that wants to have Phil finance your laziness because you did not do the proper research when building a car. Had you done the proper research, you would have known that you can buy bolts from Sears for $5 and a few other extra pieces of hardware to make the spacers work.

You asking for your money back nearly 30 days after the transaction I think is a little bit extreme. You are obviously new at doing business on the Internet. Phil has been around LS1's and ls1.com/ls1tech.com since 1999.

I am going to be more than happy to post all of the e-mails on to the web-board so that other buyers will be aware of your business tactics. They will also know that you are the type of person who doesn't want to do the research involved in building a race car, but when you find something doesn't work they way you planned, you want THE SELLER to pay for it!!!! That's completely unacceptable Tom.

If anyone wants more details on this transaction please let me know and I will be more than happy to provide them. The fact of the matter is that Tom did not do proper research and wants Phil to pay for it, which isn't right.

Tom, were you expecting him to come out to your house and install the spacers for you too if you didn't know how to do it?! Come on now. It seems to me the only reason you want your money back is because you didn't do the research and found them cheaper somewhere else, not because there was something wrong with the product.

Nobody ripped you off. You got lazy and now you want other people to pay for it. I don't think so.

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</small>

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

You are such a liar Tom!!! I can't believe that you're wanting to do business like this. You think everyone is going to sit around and wait? You think that the person willing to pay $200 was going to wait for you to flake out and your deal to fall through the cracks? I don't think so.

It was you and him, you came up with money first so he sold to you. It was that simple. You're adding in all of this nonsense into the story which never even happened. You're 46 years old (as you stated in one of your e-mails).... you should be more than well aware on how to do business (which you obviously don't).

You're just trying to blame someone else for your mistake, and that's not going to work.

a1s2d3f4

I have done alot of selling and buying on the net and MOST of it went well. I have also done some business with Phil and he IS a stand up guy. WITH THAT SAID.

Think about this,

Try going to More Performance and buying valve cover spacers and then after 30 days come back and saying

"Well, I found them cheper somewhere elsa can I have some of my money back."

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD SAY.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Duplicate

1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

You need to get your facts straight. If you want to post the whole thing, go ahead, I have nothing to hide. I formally asked for my money back 10 days after the purchase and Phil was out of town for the last 5 days of the 10 and could not be reached.

I ran my original message by Pro Stock John before posting it to make sure I was on solid ground. He agreed.

It all boils down to this:

I bought the spacers for $175 against my better judgment thinking I could get the hardware and o-rings locally without too much trouble and expense. It didn’t pan out that way. I went to Phil, he offered me $20 back or he would refund my money if I would ship them back. I tried to negotiate for half the cost of the hardware; $40. If you will go back and reread all the emails carefully, you will see that originally I asked for $50 because I felt that $125 was fair considering the hardware was going to cost me $80. When he refused, I asked him to at least meet me half way, meaning $40.

PHIL OFFERED MY MONEY BACK and when I tried to accept, he changed his mind and his whole story.

As for my laziness, you don't know me well enough to make that kind of judgment. I asked everyone I could think of where I could get them but nobody knew. I finally found out More Performance sold them when I asked a friend at work and he called a friend who told us that More Performance sold them. That was the Monday after I bought them on Saturday. Until then, I could not find anyone that could tell me. I tried, but at that point there was no reason to think things were not going to work out so I wasn’t pouring my every waking minute into it.

This board is for LS1/LS6 and even LT1 enthusiasts to come together where we can share information, swap parts, make friends, do a little racing, and basically help each other out whenever we can. I am sorry this whole thing happened. I know that if the situation were reversed, and I was selling the spacers, whether for a friend or not, and I found out the guy I sold them to was suddenly facing an extra $80 to get the hardware necessary to bolt them on, I would do my best to make the deal work out and if we could not come to a satisfactory arrangement, I would have no problem at all refunding his money (my friends feel the same way). I was raised where you do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It has always worked for me and I swear by it.

Now, having said that, I do not expect I will get my money back. I wrote that off some time ago. I do not expect Phil will meet me half way and refund $40 either, although if he did I would be glad and I would have a better opinion of him and I would shake his hand if it were offered and if it wasn’t offered, I would offer mine. I would even consider doing business with him again. However, I feel I have an obligation to the other board members to let them know what the cost of these parts are so they can make a better educated decision than I was able to at the time I purchased the spacers. They should also be aware of the circumstances of my transaction with Phil and that the only reason I want my money back is because he gave me that option, and would not meet me half way.

Again, I will state that Phil has no further legal obligation to me, but he has the same moral obligation to me that we all have to each other; to deal openly, honestly and with integrity and professionalism. Without that it just boils down to honesty among thieves. What I really find disturbing is the lack of a sense of fair play and all the hostility that is coming from you, an administrator for a local f-body club. You should be setting and example for your members. As I told you before, I am not angry, just disgusted and disappointed because I expect to be treated the same way I would treat someone else. If you can’t see what I am trying to say, then you are morally bankrupt and I feel sorry for you.

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

My professionalism is not at question here, because everyone who knows me for the many years that I've been around (PSJ and I registered on ls1.com within a month of each other) that I have always been EXTREMELY professional and have never mislead or misconstrued anyone in any type of transaction I have ever had.

Believe me, I have run this in front of some of the people in the local HFB group (mainly other admins) and they are all in agreement that you should've done your homework beforehand. If PSJ feels the need to talk to me about this or to Phil for that matter, that's fine. I have no problem whatsoever providing him with that information. PSJ has known me for a long time and knows that I am very credible.

So just for sake of discussion.... let's say I bought some heads from you (LS6 heads for example). I thought to myself, "Hey, I think I can get the head bolts and gaskets for $150." Then I look around and find out that they're really $250... you mean to tell me that if I asked you to meet me halfway on the money it will cost me to buy bolts/gaskets that you would give me $50 back??? If so, remind me to buy from you in the future since you're obviously offering a free ride.

Phil in this case dealt openly and honestly with you. He didn't cheat you in any way shape or form. You asked for valve covers, you paid for valve covers, you received valve covers.... that's it. All this extra stuff that you're asking for (help with the cost of the mounting hardware) you are definitely not entitled to by any means, morally or not. Sure, you would LIKE to have them at 1/2 the cost just because that's the kind of person that you are, but unfortunately that is not the case.

My morality and you feeling sorry for me are not at up for discussion at this time. You do not know me either, but I have been doing business online MUCH LONGER than you have. I understand what you're trying to say, but I absolutely do not and will not agree with you. Neither will the other people involved in this transaction, and neither will the other people that I have presented these ideas to. Continuing to discuss this matter is a moot point.

The fact is that you're crying over $80 which was an UNDISCOVERED EXPENSE. Were you not expecting to run into any of those when building a race car??? Ask PSJ how many "undiscovered expenses" he's run into in the numerous f-body's that he's owned. You win some and you lose some. Unfortunately, you didn't do enough homework on this purchase.

My apologies for your lack of thoroughness.

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</small>

1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

I was not questioning your professionalism. What I said was “we all” need to deal openly, honestly, and with integrity and professionalism. That was not directed and anyone, it applies to all of us.

In the last month and a half, I have bought several items from several board members and I always paid promptly and treated the sellers with the utmost respect, the way I treat everyone, which makes those transactions irrelevant, but, if you like, I can give you their names and you can contact them. Length of time on the board has nothing to do with this; it is all about integrity and standing behind your word. I guess Phil was just joking when he gave me the option to have my money refunded, in writing.

Your example is not accurate because you can get head bolts and gaskets from many different places, for many different prices, so you can pick where you want to buy them based on how much you want to pay or where you want to go to get them.. As far as I have been able to find out, I can only get the stand-offs from More Performance and I must pay their price. Obviously, if I had known where to check before I bought the spacers I would have and I would have known the cost and would never have agreed to pay $175. Who would have thought 8 stand-offs and 2 o-rings would cost $80. I think Phil may have been as surprised as I was.

Phil did not deal openly and honestly with me because I was not even doing business with Phil, I was doing business with his friend Brent and Phil made several deceptive and misleading statements that lead me to believe I was dealing with him and only him and he only told the truth when I asked him to refund my money after he refused to meet me half way.

If you insist on fighting Phil’s battles for him, I think your morality and integrity are relevant. You pretty much know the whole story and you still condone his deceptive and misleading statements. I think that speaks for itself.

I agree we are whipping a dead horse. This isn’t going anywhere, but then, it wasn’t meant to. As I said before, I have already written off the “undiscovered expense” and I am only warning other members. They can make up their own minds.

Phil

Tom,

Let's make few things clear here.

1) I had valve cover spacers for sale, you came and inspected them, you agreed to purchase them, and paid me in full.

2) I sold them for a friend who did not have the time to post them on ls1tech and deal with all of the e-mails that he was going to receive on the product, so I went ahead and did that for him.

3) Everything in our conversations (which I still have -- and accused me of changing) was true and to the point. You coming on here and bashing me are borderline of slanderous. You are saying some very untrue things, all of which I have proof of.

4) I gave you an option. I said that I would give you $20 to offset the cost of MORE Performance (which I don't even have to do) or that I would give you your money back. You chose the money, but were not happy with what I offered you. Options are exactly that. You make a choice. If you want A or B. You chose A, and here we are arguing because you want more money than I offered, and more than I am willing to give you.

5) You are lying about the total amount that you asked for from me. You originally asked for $50 and I said no. Now you're telling everyone in this "Internet Community" that you asked me for $40. $10 is a moot point, but it's just to show how much of a crook you are.

6) Is it really that difficult for you to go to Sears, buy some bolts and washers and use a little bit of creativity in making the spacers work for you? I had to do that on a few of the cars that I've done. You're very creative in your wording in your posts on this board, I'm sure you can be creative enough to make a bolt/washer combination work on your car.

7) I told you on the "money back" situation, to contact Brent directly because I had felt that my involvement in the situation was very little and that type of a decision wasn't mine to make. If you should be mad at anybody it's Brent, I was just orchestrating a transaction. That being said, the original topic is that Brent really doesn't have to give you back anything.

8) Brent said that he would get the bolts for you from MORE Performance through his connections for $65 AND the $20 back. This was not good enough for you, and you wanted us to eat half of THAT cost, and give you $30 back.

The bottom line is that you are VERY VERY cheap. In my entire dealings with the Internet, I have never in my life come across anyone that is as cheap as you. You are putting my reputation with others here at stake because you found a better deal somewhere else which you were too lazy to do any research on before making your purchase. Do you get mad at K-Mart because Wal-Mart put something on sale? I don't think so... besides that, I'm not in the business of matching prices, or any business for that matter. I simply sold you a part, you paid for it (after inspecting it in person), that's it. That's where I'm out of the whole scenario.

You are trying to act like I sold you an incorrect part, stole some money from you, or sold you plastic spacers instead of metal ones. Whatever the case may be, I did nothing wrong. I completed a transaction, that's it. You're mad because you found something cheaper somewhere else.... and you want to minimize your expenses. If you're willing to cheese people over $50, then maybe you should sell that $50,000 race car that you're claiming to build and buy a Mercedes with it or something.... or would you try to cheat them out of their money too.

Bottom line is that you're cheap, always will be cheap, and a VERY difficult person to deal with. Now I know why Ethan wouldn't sell you his FTRA kit, Thermostat, and ported ARE oil-pump for the $125 that you offered him. Get a life and quit wasting my time and the time of people on the Internet because you're the stingiest purchaser on the planet.

1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

Now you need to get your facts straight.

1) True

2) Misleading. You never told me about this up front and made several deceptive and misleading statements leading me to believe I was dealing with you and only you.

3) False. I never accused you of changing any of our conversations. When MastaAce98 contacted me I sent him all of our conversations to compare; this makes sure we are both on the up and up. These are the statements you made to me, “I have been offered $200 from another guy but since u wanna pick them up I would let them go for $175. This is my best price I can do...Let me know..” and “I was just selling what I had and paid more than that” and “I’m already losing money here”?

4) False. You did give me a choice, but I never chose the $20, I tried to get you to meet me half way at $40 but you refused. That is when I made my choice and it was for a refund.

5) False. I have already stated that I originally asked for $50 back because $125 seemed like a fair price for spacers with no hardware. Here is a copy and paste where I stated I wanted you to meet me half way, this is dated January 30, “You got them brand new with no stand-offs and no o-rings (they use a special o-ring, not a stock gasket) for $275? That doesn’t make sense to me. So what you want me to do is take $20 making my initial cost $155 then spend another $80 + shipping for the parts I need? That adds up to $235 + shipping. For $15 more I could have bought them brand new with all the correct parts. At least meet me half way and knock off $40. That seems fair to me.”

6) No, it is not difficult for me to go to Sears, I go there often. If that kind of hardware was acceptable, I think More Performance would be using it also, but zinc coatings can come off and that is not something you want floating around in a high performance engine. I explained that I am building a car that I plan to show as well as race both drag and autocross occasionally. The spacers will add a dressed up look and provide added clearance to help reduce oil being sucked back into the intake through the pcv system. Shade tree engineering will not win awards.

7) Misleading. When you told me you would give me my money back, you had never mentioned Brent. I took you at your word. I am not mad at anybody. I realize that there are people in this world that don’t always stand behind what they say. True, legally, nobody owes me anything. This is all about honesty and integrity.

8) False. Brent said he didn’t know if he could get the parts or not. He said he would try to get them for $65 and never said anything about the $20, I figured that was long gone. It was all a big maybe and if he was willing to go to all that trouble it would have been easier just to give me back $40. Let’s not forget that he told me several times that he has no problem selling the spacers for $250 with no hardware. If this is true, why not take them back and resell them for $200-$250? I was going to pay the shipping. He would have lost nothing and stood to make an additional $25-$75. There is another integrity issue for you.

You can place any label you like on me because it doesn’t bother me. You say I am cheap, I say I am just trying to be a good steward over what God has given me. If I wanted to spend the kind of money we are talking for the spacers and hardware (if Brent can get it), I would have bought them new and complete from More Performance. Neither you nor I knew how much the hardware and o-rings were going to be, so $175 didn’t sound so bad. Now that we know, it is obvious the spacers were over-priced. The lack of research has nothing to do with whether I am lazy or not. Just like anybody else, I do have my lazy days, but that has nothing to do with this. I simply had no idea where to look. If I had known where to look, I would have made the necessary phone calls to check things out and would have known the cost in advance and you and I would not be having this conversation, it would be you and somebody else.

You did not sell me an incorrect part, steal money from me, or any of that. I never said you did anything wrong, other than leading me to believe I was dealing solely with you when I wasn’t. It really is more that you didn't do enough of what is right. You won't go the extra mile to make the customer happy and all he wants is to be met half way on an expense neither party was aware of. I did enough research on ls1tech to know that a complete set had just sold for $125 and then I saw another complete set sell for $160 after our transaction. I quoted these to you so you would be aware that the price we agreed on was over-priced considering the cost of the hardware. I was not trying to get you to meet that same price. If you had met me half way, my cost would have been $215 + shipping which is way more than either of the other 2 sets. That would have been fine with me for all new parts.

Bottom line is you can’t blame a guy for wanting a fair price. You can ask any of the other members I have dealt with how easy I am to deal with. I never tried to buy anything from Ethan. I was interested in the ARE oil pump , but I was too late, it was already sold and was never interested in the FTRA as I will be supercharging and will be eliminating the stock induction altogether. Ask my Pastor, or my nieces, or the United Way, or several missionaries in Honduras, Mexico, and Germany how stingy I am. You really don’t know anything about me and I have backed up all my supposed lies with truths and information directly from our conversations. I will stand behind everything I have said. How about you, wanna meet me half way? It isn't too late.

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

This is my post from the other thread (since it got locked)....

Tom Guiles (since you decided to post my name),

First of all, I can't believe that you went as far as posting something like this. But, let's go ahead and let me point out all of the flaws in your story.

1) Phil did Brent a favor and sold something for him on the Internet. Whether or not it is Phil's is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

2) You paid for valve cover spacers which you PHYSICALLY INSPECTED and picked up IN PERSON. You AGREED to pay $175 for the spacers. You KNEW that they did not come with any hardware, and purchased them anyway.

3) You asked Phil for $50, not $40 (which I have proof of). Nowhere in your dealings with Phil did you ask for $40 (which you can prove), making you a liar.

Let me also point out something else. When you wanted to purchase the valve cover spacers, you originally wanted to pay $150 for them. Phil did not agree to that, and wanted $175 (which is fine, you agreed to pay it). Now, if he were to give you the valve cover spacers for $150, that's only $25 off of $175. After you have the spacers in hand and call over town trying to get O-Rings/Fasteners you ask for $50?!?!? What kind of sense does that make? That would make the original purchase price $125, which is $25 from the original $150 you wanted to pay for them.

It comes down to this Tom. You're a guy that wants to have Phil finance your laziness because you did not do the proper research when building a car. Had you done the proper research, you would have known that you can buy bolts from Sears for $5 and a few other extra pieces of hardware to make the spacers work.

You asking for your money back nearly 30 days after the transaction I think is a little bit extreme. You are obviously new at doing business on the Internet. Phil has been around LS1's and ls1.com/ls1tech.com since 1999.

I am going to be more than happy to post all of the e-mails on to the web-board so that other buyers will be aware of your business tactics. They will also know that you are the type of person who doesn't want to do the research involved in building a race car, but when you find something doesn't work they way you planned, you want THE SELLER to pay for it!!!! That's completely unacceptable Tom.

If anyone wants more details on this transaction please let me know and I will be more than happy to provide them. The fact of the matter is that Tom did not do proper research and wants Phil to pay for it, which isn't right.

Tom, were you expecting him to come out to your house and install the spacers for you too if you didn't know how to do it?! Come on now. It seems to me the only reason you want your money back is because you didn't do the research and found them cheaper somewhere else, not because there was something wrong with the product.

Nobody ripped you off. You got lazy and now you want other people to pay for it. I don't think so.

MastaAce98

iTrader: (1)

If I would've known Yahoo was going to boom like it did in 2000, I would've been a millionaire.

If I would've known everything that I know about my car now, I wouldn't have spent so much money trying out different things and doing research.

If I would've known the stock market was going to crash, I never would've bought stock after 2001.

If I would've known CPU prices were going to drop so drastically, I wouldn't have bought the top model only to see it be 50% cheaper 30 days later.

If I would've known that (insert scenario here) was going to happen, I should've (insert result here).

It's called learning from your mistakes. Other people can't be expected to pay for it. The fact is, I'm done dealing with all of this. Here are the e-mails that went back and forth for everyone to see. They can make their own decisions from this. The only thing that has been omitted from the e-mails is people's phone numbers for personal reasons. Obviously... for those of you who may want to read this garbage, read them in the order that I posted, then from bottom to top.

Tom and Phil -- 1
Tom and Phil -- 2
Tom and Ethan

Once again, I ask you to prove where this comes from:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You got them brand new with no stand-offs and no o-rings (they use a special o-ring, not a stock gasket) for $275? That doesn’t make sense to me. So what you want me to do is take $20 making my initial cost $155 then spend another $80 + shipping for the parts I need? That adds up to $235 + shipping. For $15 more I could have bought them brand new with all the correct parts. At least meet me half way and knock off $40. That seems fair to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've read over the e-mails that YOU provided several times and can't find it anywhere, so please correct me.

E

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: MastaAce98 ]</small>

One Monkey

Okay... I will make a guess apperance here since My name came up soooo... many times.

Dude I am sorry you are so unhappy. But no one did you any wrong. (and you are on here slandering)YOU KNOW, and even agreed you where not cheated.!

The spacers have been sold for a long time since the first time there came out for $250.00 (which dose not matter at this point.) You got it for $175.

You met phill agreed too pay $175.00 the post price was $200.00.

Later on you figuer you wanted the install kit More Performance sells with there spacers.
which is fine. But the kit sold with there spaces is sold at a better deal than you would get if you brought the spacers and kit separate.

That happens every where you go!!

This is a modification too a stock part. There are a few diffrent ways too making it work. same for most mods too our cars,
Now everyone wants the best deal. I understand that. And I would of like too help you out in a reasonable way.

I told you I was not going too refund your money back. Since, You got a Brand new spacer, no damages, and It was in perfect shape. You inspect it, you knew the hardware is sold separatly, and was not part of the deal. If the spacers had any problems. Or you felt you did not get what you agree too pay for I would of been happy too give you a refund. (but even you agree that's not the case and you inspected and pick the spacers up in person)

However Just too try and make you happy I did agree too get the kit you wanted, for $65 which would of gave you the $240. price you where after. (That offer still stands)I have no reason too do that but for the simple reason of tring too make you happy.

You said you would stand behine anything you sell, and will do anything with in reason. So will I and in fact I have sold things from a $20 skip shift too a $5000 motor and LS1thech.com and LS1.com I had times where I had too refund cash because somthing did not work out. This is not the case, you are not happy with what you pay.

You where not done any wrong.
and it's imoral of you too bash anyone Just because you think you can get a better deal than there gave you.

(oh. and by the way The guy defending Phill, also brought a set of spacers from him. at $250 no kit.)

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: One Monkey ]</small>

1bad2k2ta

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to leave everyone hanging, but the last few days have been very hectic for me and I have not had a lot of free time to respond to these latest posts.

Ethan, you have mail. I apologize, that particular message was an offshoot from the string of messages I sent you and I didn’t catch it. Phil should have that one also. Since you have the ability to edit your last post, I would appreciate it if you would include that message also for the record and for all to see that I have not been lying.

Brent, I am glad you decided to join us; I have some questions for you. As I have already stated over and over again, the issue is not the price of the spacers, even though at $175 they were grossly overpriced, but we will get to that in a minute. The issue is the unexpected high cost and availability of the hardware, and you guys not being willing to go the extra mile to work out a satisfactory arrangement with me. I know you offered to try to get the hardware for $65 and I appreciate your effort there, but that would still make my cost $240. That is also the price I quoted you that I could get them from More Performance for, but after going back over my emails and going to the More Performance website, I have to say I was in error; they sell for $250 and I apologize for the confusion on my part.

I knew right away I needed the hardware and o-rings and began looking immediately for the offsets but could not find them anywhere. I finally found them at More Performance for $80. It was not later as you stated, it was the same day (Monday after I purchased the spacers on Saturday). I contacted Phil as soon as I got home; the email is dated Monday January 30, 2003 at 5:06 pm. The guy at More Performance did not say anything about a kit that included the offsets and o-rings, but rather said they normally sell the offsets and o-rings with the spacers as a kit meaning the spacers, o-rings, and offsets. He said they do not stock the parts separately and would need to have them made up and would sell them with the o-rings for $80.

Ok, time to shift gears. I see that you are willing to refund people’s money for some things but I do not understand your unwillingness to give someone’s money back if they are dissatisfied for ANY reason and they are willing to ship the item back to you at their own expense. After all, you do not lose anything, you can still resell the item to someone else, and you stand to gain from it by creating good will and a satisfied customer even though he ended up with nothing. They would likely be inclined to say things like, “Brent is a good, honest Joe; he gave me my money back even though he really didn’t have to. I would do business with him again anytime and recommend him to my friends”. Is it because it is for your business and you need to get a restocking fee or something? I could almost understand that. I am very interested in your reasoning on this.

Ok, time to shift gears again. Everyone else is throwing out analogies, so here is one of my own.
If you had the spacers for sale for $1000 and someone agreed to pay $800 just because they thought they were getting a good deal, would you sell them for that even though they could have gotten them somewhere else for way less than that? Would that be fair? I think you would agree, that would not be fair, at least I hope you would agree. Would it be fair to ask $500 and sell them to some unsuspecting soul for $350? Again I hope you will agree that this is not fair either. These are extreme examples and unrealistic in this case and nobody with any scruples would do that to someone else, right? Now we get to the meat of the matter.

Most of us like to think of ourselves as being fair, honest, and willing to give the other guy an even break. I’m sure you feel that way, too. Through Phil, you listed the spacers for sale for $200, I offered $150, Phil said he could do $175 (I assume with your blessing). I was reluctant, especially after finding out the offsets and o-rings were not included. However, because I was told there was another guy waiting to pay $200 and I already saw that these things usually sell very quickly (even though for less money and include all the necessary parts), against my better judgment, I agreed. There was no time for research and I didn’t know the first place to begin looking anyway. So, even though I didn’t feel this was the fairest price, I was willing to pay it thinking I could get the parts locally and inexpensively. I soon found out this was not the case; yada, yada, yada, we all know the story. So, what had looked like a high, but acceptable price suddenly was a totally unacceptable price; over $255.

What you are saying is that $175 was a fair price because I was willing to pay it despite my reservations. In reality, was this a fair price? Not in my opinion and not in the opinion of several other members of this board. I ran a poll to see what others would pay for new spacers that did not include the parts necessary to install them. I asked two questions and the results are as follows:

Question #1:
What would you pay for new spacers if they don’t include the offsets or o-rings?

Results:
Less than $75.....22% (2 votes)
$75...................44% (4 votes)
$100...................0% (0 votes)
$125..................11% (1 vote)
$150..................11% (1 vote)
$175...................0% (0 votes)
$200...................0% (0 votes)
$225...................0% (0 votes)
$250...................0% (0 votes)
More than $250.....11% (1 vote)

Question #2”
What would you pay if you found out the missing items cost $80 + shipping?

Results:
Less than $75.....44% (4 votes)
$75...................11% (1 votes)
$100...................0% (0 votes)
$125..................22% (2 vote)
$150..................11% (1 vote)
$175...................0% (0 votes)
$200...................0% (0 votes)
$225...................0% (0 votes)
$250...................0% (0 votes)
More than $250....11% (1 vote)

As you can see, no one thought $175 was a fair price. In fact, over 50% would only pay $75 or less in both cases. One person said they would pay more than $250 in both cases. This is highly suspect and I intend to have Pro Stock John look into who posted it. Now my analogy doesn’t seem so extreme or unrealistic. I basically paid 2 and 1/3 times what other members say would be a fair price.

Now, I agreed to the $175 and I am willing to stand by it, all I have asked from the get-go is that you meet me half way on the parts and refund $40. I know you say you can get them for $65 but, and I hope you will forgive me, I don’t think I want to do any more business with you. If this still is not acceptable to you, then I ask that you refund all my money and I will be more than happy to ship the spacers back to you, or Phil, or whomever and you can sell them to someone else, you will have lost nothing. If PSJ can determine who it was that said they would pay over $250, I will see if I can hook you up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

Geez, what a mess. From an outsider's viewpoint:

1. You bought parts, in person, at a lower price than asking price, and even inspected them. You bought exactly what you wanted.

2. Phil offered you $20 to put towards the hardware. He didn't have to offer you a thing. Brent offered you the hardware at his wholesale cost, he didn't have to also.

I think the rest of the discussion is useless. Either take Brent up on his discounted hardware offer, or just sell those spacers to someone else. They shouldn't have to refund you if this refund wasn't discussed at the time of purchase. I wouldn't.

Take this one to email please.

Tony