Catalitic decomposition of Nitrous Oxide
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
Catalitic decomposition of Nitrous Oxide “that (nitrous) can only be broken down by high heat”
OK, it's right, but the experiments have shown, that effective decomposition of N2O starts only at 600 C. At this stage N2O intensifies engine work.
This temperature can only be reduced by using a catalytic agent. This is important for internal combustion engines, which work in cycle. If we had a jet engine we could heat it up to the temperature we need.
We started using catalytic agent about 2 years ago and our research led to creating of a prototype of spark a plugs which can increase the power of ANY (!) nitrous system up to 1/3. The system on our test car increased its power from 36% to 48% of wheel power only with the help of catalyst.
Now NX is testing our prototype, first results have only shown ¼ of nitrous system power on their LS1. However, I hope that after setup of their MAF, for use with catalytic agent, they would reach more. Probably NX will sell first industrial samples in nearest future.
OK, it's right, but the experiments have shown, that effective decomposition of N2O starts only at 600 C. At this stage N2O intensifies engine work.
This temperature can only be reduced by using a catalytic agent. This is important for internal combustion engines, which work in cycle. If we had a jet engine we could heat it up to the temperature we need.
We started using catalytic agent about 2 years ago and our research led to creating of a prototype of spark a plugs which can increase the power of ANY (!) nitrous system up to 1/3. The system on our test car increased its power from 36% to 48% of wheel power only with the help of catalyst.
Now NX is testing our prototype, first results have only shown ¼ of nitrous system power on their LS1. However, I hope that after setup of their MAF, for use with catalytic agent, they would reach more. Probably NX will sell first industrial samples in nearest future.
Where is the catalyst on there? Is it the crap around the plug that looks like lead buildup? Or is it what the electrode is made from?
What is the catalyst and why does it have an effect on the nitrous.
How long does it last.
If it does begin the breakdown of nitrous at a lower temp does timing have to be reduced even further? Please be as technical as possible.
What is the catalyst and why does it have an effect on the nitrous.
How long does it last.
If it does begin the breakdown of nitrous at a lower temp does timing have to be reduced even further? Please be as technical as possible.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
You are right, this is that very crap around the external electrodes. Electrodes are standard, catalyst does not have concern the electricity. 
We can`t say what this catalyst is made of, but it is attached by hyperthermal glue. Theoreticlly the work of ANY catalyst is eternal, but because of high temperatures inside the engine we could not achieve its worktime more than 5000 km.
Why does it work? Nitrous oxide decomposition, as every chemical reaction has an energetic level and use of a catalyst reduces this level. If we put the energy constantly into a system, we get some temperature. Experiments show, that the temp of decomposition without catalyst is around 600 C, but if we use some catalysts we can reduce this temp even to 100 C.
There is no need to setup timing with use of catalyst.
*edited by 383LQ4SS...please keep thread technical in nature*
We can`t say what this catalyst is made of, but it is attached by hyperthermal glue. Theoreticlly the work of ANY catalyst is eternal, but because of high temperatures inside the engine we could not achieve its worktime more than 5000 km.
Why does it work? Nitrous oxide decomposition, as every chemical reaction has an energetic level and use of a catalyst reduces this level. If we put the energy constantly into a system, we get some temperature. Experiments show, that the temp of decomposition without catalyst is around 600 C, but if we use some catalysts we can reduce this temp even to 100 C.
There is no need to setup timing with use of catalyst.
*edited by 383LQ4SS...please keep thread technical in nature*
Last edited by 383LQ4SS; Jun 16, 2004 at 10:07 PM.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
From: So Cal, CA
If that is the catalyst on the plug there, it doesnt look applied very professionally. I thought it was just a melted down plug initially (which it still looks like).
Simple speak:
So your saying this "catalyst" material added to the spark plugs changes the temperature that nitrous combusts?? And by combusting at a lower temperature it makes more power?? If not, whats creating this additional power?
Also what effect would normal everyday driving or running of the motor without nitrous have? It would have to have some effect whether it be pos/neg.
Also in what way does this work with the nitrous to make power in non technical speak??
I deal with very high HP nitrous systems on my dyno and i'd be interested in testing anything you have to offer as long as thier is some technical info to allow me to safely use this setup and test it. Im not willing to melt down motors testing it....
Simple speak:
So your saying this "catalyst" material added to the spark plugs changes the temperature that nitrous combusts?? And by combusting at a lower temperature it makes more power?? If not, whats creating this additional power?
Also what effect would normal everyday driving or running of the motor without nitrous have? It would have to have some effect whether it be pos/neg.
Also in what way does this work with the nitrous to make power in non technical speak??
I deal with very high HP nitrous systems on my dyno and i'd be interested in testing anything you have to offer as long as thier is some technical info to allow me to safely use this setup and test it. Im not willing to melt down motors testing it....
I have always been under the impression that N2O produces more horsepower by increasing cylinder pressure. Why would there be less of a chance of detonation if the temperature of which N2O breaks down is reduced. It would still have to generate enough heat to increase the cylinder pressure to make more horsepower. Whether N2O is broken down at 100C or 600C it would still have to do the same job. Nothing would change the actual temperature or pressure of the combustion chamber. There would still be the same timing issues and detonation problems. If in fact the temperature in the combustion chamber was reduced, wouldn't that reduce the cylinder pressure, in turn reduce horsepower?
Catalytic Decomposition of Nitrous Oxide has already been used on spacecraft propulsion....
NOW onto the more interesting parts....of why i'm skeptical of this thread...
First and foremost the secret "catalyst" they speak of can be any of the following materials..
Halogen Products, Mercury, Nickel and Platinum
Nitrous Oxide Dissociation is exothermic, meaning that when you catalzise the decomposition of it, it WILL cause a considerable rise in pressure.....
Decomposition of N20 happens at 575*C
AND
When you use Thermal decomposition on nitrous oxide, it's VERY CORROSIVE in the presence of moisture
You do realize that 600*C is 1,112*F
NOW onto the more interesting parts....of why i'm skeptical of this thread...
First and foremost the secret "catalyst" they speak of can be any of the following materials..
Halogen Products, Mercury, Nickel and Platinum
Nitrous Oxide Dissociation is exothermic, meaning that when you catalzise the decomposition of it, it WILL cause a considerable rise in pressure.....
that effective decomposition of N2O starts only at 600 C
AND
When you use Thermal decomposition on nitrous oxide, it's VERY CORROSIVE in the presence of moisture
You do realize that 600*C is 1,112*F
Trending Topics
Dr. Sarah Larson (Ph.D. Harvard University in Chemistry)
She achieved the following in her research..
Ruthenium exchanged zeolites have been shown to be active for the decomposition of nitrous oxide at relatively low temperatures (~250¡C)
Relativly low, it's about 450-500 degrees........and you propose you can do it at 200 degrees by attaching chemicals to a spark plug........
I'd like to see some of the research logs and data backing up these claims....
She achieved the following in her research..
Ruthenium exchanged zeolites have been shown to be active for the decomposition of nitrous oxide at relatively low temperatures (~250¡C)
Relativly low, it's about 450-500 degrees........and you propose you can do it at 200 degrees by attaching chemicals to a spark plug........
I'd like to see some of the research logs and data backing up these claims....
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo Banned
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
From: So Cal, CA
Originally Posted by bad2000ss
I have always been under the impression that N2O produces more horsepower by increasing cylinder pressure. Why would there be less of a chance of detonation if the temperature of which N2O breaks down is reduced. It would still have to generate enough heat to increase the cylinder pressure to make more horsepower. Whether N2O is broken down at 100C or 600C it would still have to do the same job. Nothing would change the actual temperature or pressure of the combustion chamber. There would still be the same timing issues and detonation problems. If in fact the temperature in the combustion chamber was reduced, wouldn't that reduce the cylinder pressure, in turn reduce horsepower?
The fuel makes the power, not the nitrous...nitrous is an oxidizer...
think of a car that runs on alcohol, the combustion temperature is so low and it creates very little heat compared to gas, often not even requiring a radiator on race cars...they are very hard to overheat
Banned
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
From: So Cal, CA
Btw: What does it mean "decomposition at a lower temp" What exactly is that? is that were the molecules seperate and the oxygen molecule is released seperate from the nitrogen?
does this mean it burns sooner and faster?
does this mean it burns sooner and faster?
10 Second Club
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,884
Likes: 4
From: H-town
so if i want 1/4 more power from my nitrous system, what is keeping me from going up on the jets. seems like regular NGK plugs have already proveing to be reliable for nitrous use. why would people want to pay high dollar for expensive spark plugs with this catalytic agent that looks like it is going to fall off into the cylinder while in use.
VII...I edited you post above in regards to selling your product. If you want to keep the thread open you must stick to technical talk...thanks.
Anyways....lets just assume the catalyst works as advertised and the release of the all important oxygen molecules happens 100 degrees C sooner in the cycle. Why does this translate to more power? The catalyst cannot increase the ammount of oxygen present...only make it present sooner for combustion.
The only way I can see this providing more power would be due to a change in the rate the flame front travels and where the cylinder pressures occur during the stroke.
I need more clarification on how this may increase the power with the same amount of fuel and oxygen present.
Anyways....lets just assume the catalyst works as advertised and the release of the all important oxygen molecules happens 100 degrees C sooner in the cycle. Why does this translate to more power? The catalyst cannot increase the ammount of oxygen present...only make it present sooner for combustion.
The only way I can see this providing more power would be due to a change in the rate the flame front travels and where the cylinder pressures occur during the stroke.
I need more clarification on how this may increase the power with the same amount of fuel and oxygen present.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To C4VetteLS1:
well... it`s not applied very professionally: it is one of the first prototypes... now it looks better. I will publish new pics some time later.
In every day drive the catalyst does not affect your engine and its power.
Now I`ll try to explain you how it works.
When you are not using catalyst, until your engine reaches 600 C piston has already moved, for example, 15 mm. So if your piston moves for 90 mm, you waste near 16%, driving without n2o. When catalyst is inside the combustion chamber, when your engine reaches 200 C, your piston moves, for example, 5 mm, so you only waste near 5%. This catalyst can be put into combustion chamber any way, but spark plugs is the most convinient one.
To FLYNLOW92rs:
I swear, it`s neither any product of halogens, nor mercury, nickel and platinum.
"...it WILL cause a considerable rise in pressure....." that`s one of the factors why the power rises.
"...Ruthenium exchanged zeolites..." - f@#^ that. I have reached 200 C, but I know a catalyst which gives 147 C, but I can`t find it anywhere.
well... it`s not applied very professionally: it is one of the first prototypes... now it looks better. I will publish new pics some time later.
In every day drive the catalyst does not affect your engine and its power.
Now I`ll try to explain you how it works.
When you are not using catalyst, until your engine reaches 600 C piston has already moved, for example, 15 mm. So if your piston moves for 90 mm, you waste near 16%, driving without n2o. When catalyst is inside the combustion chamber, when your engine reaches 200 C, your piston moves, for example, 5 mm, so you only waste near 5%. This catalyst can be put into combustion chamber any way, but spark plugs is the most convinient one.
To FLYNLOW92rs:
I swear, it`s neither any product of halogens, nor mercury, nickel and platinum.
"...it WILL cause a considerable rise in pressure....." that`s one of the factors why the power rises.
"...Ruthenium exchanged zeolites..." - f@#^ that. I have reached 200 C, but I know a catalyst which gives 147 C, but I can`t find it anywhere.
Last edited by VIl; Jun 17, 2004 at 05:48 AM.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To C4VetteLS1:
"Btw: What does it mean "decomposition at a lower temp" What exactly is that? is that were the molecules seperate and the oxygen molecule is released seperate from the nitrogen?
does this mean it burns sooner and faster?"
Exactly.
To BigPlanTransAm: Man, I`m Russian and I have learnt English, but not the dialect you are speaking.
"Btw: What does it mean "decomposition at a lower temp" What exactly is that? is that were the molecules seperate and the oxygen molecule is released seperate from the nitrogen?
does this mean it burns sooner and faster?"
Exactly.
To BigPlanTransAm: Man, I`m Russian and I have learnt English, but not the dialect you are speaking.
Originally Posted by VIl
To FLYNLOW92rs:
I swear, it`s neither any product of halogens, nor mercury, nickel and platinum.
"...it WILL cause a considerable rise in pressure....." that`s one of the factors why the power rises.
"...Ruthenium exchanged zeolites..." - f@#^ that. I have reached 200 C, but I know a catalyst which gives 147 C, but I can`t find it anywhere.
I swear, it`s neither any product of halogens, nor mercury, nickel and platinum.
"...it WILL cause a considerable rise in pressure....." that`s one of the factors why the power rises.
"...Ruthenium exchanged zeolites..." - f@#^ that. I have reached 200 C, but I know a catalyst which gives 147 C, but I can`t find it anywhere.
Your unwilling to provide technical data to back up these claims, other then what you tell us
You claim to have surpassed a Harvard Doctorate Graduate in her research and consequently NASA field engineers as well
Are you willing to back up these claims??
He is correct however, when you decompose nitrous, it causes a considerable amount of pressure.....IF and IF you can achieve nitrous to decompose in the minimal amount of time you have while in the cylinder, it will push with much more pressure then smiply oxidizing gas...
Now what he isn't telling you is that it's practically IMPOSSIBLE to do this in an internal combustion engine, and NEVER has anyone documented being able to introduce a catalytic agent that was able to decompose nitrous at 100*C as he claims....
2 Questions for you.....
What's your response to the fact you are creating a toxic gas that's corrosive when moisture is present?
Nitrous doesn't come in contact with the spark plug, at least not all of it, how does the catalytic agent from the spark plug combnie with ALL THE NITROUS...
The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
VIl: BigPlanTransAm was only stating that he wanted to see some of the guys that use nitrous a little more heavily like myself to give them a try. Sort of the same thing I would say , let me know when a really big nitrous tuners like Jeff Prock from Applied Nitrous Technologies starts using them with his racers with great results. In general all people are skeptical and tend to follow the successes that others make. Same thing with this sort of thing.
FLYNLOW92rs, He shouldn't have to disclose much of anything. However, I do believe it would be in our interest if he could ultimately provide more supporting informaiton. It's sort of the same thing if I asked you how you can substantiate that it's IMPOSSIBLE to do in a IC engine and NEVER has been documented. Got any proof of that? Or how about the fact that all exhaust emissions are ultimately toxic in one varying degree or another. All I'm saying is to keep the discussion productive and positive.
FLYNLOW92rs, He shouldn't have to disclose much of anything. However, I do believe it would be in our interest if he could ultimately provide more supporting informaiton. It's sort of the same thing if I asked you how you can substantiate that it's IMPOSSIBLE to do in a IC engine and NEVER has been documented. Got any proof of that? Or how about the fact that all exhaust emissions are ultimately toxic in one varying degree or another. All I'm saying is to keep the discussion productive and positive.
10 Second Club
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,884
Likes: 4
From: H-town
if NX ever considers manufactoring them and people start getting good results, and if they dont cost to much, i might try them. until then, i am not going to be one of the first that tries it and gets ripped off or melts a motor.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To FLYNLOW92rs:
"When you use Thermal decomposition on nitrous oxide, it's VERY CORROSIVE in the presence of moisture" & "What's your response to the fact you are creating a toxic gas that's corrosive when moisture is present?"
Well, not only I, but everyone creates toxic gas, using n2o. Exeryone creates toxic gases: remember yourself after eating a lot of beans...
"Nitrous doesn't come in contact with the spark plug, at least not all of it, how does the catalytic agent from the spark plug combnie with ALL THE NITROUS..."
I see you didn`t have enough technique education: when the first portions of n2o+fuel+air, contacting with plug, start burning the flame front rapidly reaches a temp of more than 600 C. So all other n2o starts burning rapidly too.
"Decomposition of N20 happens at 575*C"
575 & 600 are almost the same temp`s.
"You claim to have surpassed a Harvard Doctorate Graduate in her research and consequently NASA field engineers as well"
NASA engineers have found a better catalyst than your Harvard Doctor. You don`t know anything about my graduate, education & researches, I don`t want to humiliate you, but surely they are higher than yours.
"Your unwilling to provide technical data to back up these claims, other then what you tell us"
Having special respect to you as a critic, I would send you personally my patent materials, which "provide technical data".
"When you use Thermal decomposition on nitrous oxide, it's VERY CORROSIVE in the presence of moisture" & "What's your response to the fact you are creating a toxic gas that's corrosive when moisture is present?"
Well, not only I, but everyone creates toxic gas, using n2o. Exeryone creates toxic gases: remember yourself after eating a lot of beans...
"Nitrous doesn't come in contact with the spark plug, at least not all of it, how does the catalytic agent from the spark plug combnie with ALL THE NITROUS..."
I see you didn`t have enough technique education: when the first portions of n2o+fuel+air, contacting with plug, start burning the flame front rapidly reaches a temp of more than 600 C. So all other n2o starts burning rapidly too.
"Decomposition of N20 happens at 575*C"
575 & 600 are almost the same temp`s.
"You claim to have surpassed a Harvard Doctorate Graduate in her research and consequently NASA field engineers as well"
NASA engineers have found a better catalyst than your Harvard Doctor. You don`t know anything about my graduate, education & researches, I don`t want to humiliate you, but surely they are higher than yours.
"Your unwilling to provide technical data to back up these claims, other then what you tell us"
Having special respect to you as a critic, I would send you personally my patent materials, which "provide technical data".
Please print your patent #'s so we can look them up. Question? If liberating the oxygen is so advantagous then why not inject a small amount of pure oxygen? My point is the purpose of using N2O is its stability at low temps. By lowering the temperature to the levels your speaking of the oxygen would release become unstable and detonate prematurely. 