Realistic question: Is HPtuners hard?
08-10-2009, 09:25 AM
#1
Realistic question: Is HPtuners hard? He is my question. I am going to be putting in a cam 224/224 .581 112+4 into my 2000 TA. It currently has all bolt ons.
I have a knowledge of tuning with AFR and such. Closed and open loop. But this knowledge is with Buicks only not LS1s.
How hard is it for a beginner to learn HPtuners?
I hate to buy the software and then wind up paying someone to tune it.
I am looking at getting it just for the simple fact that if I could learn the software that I will have the power in my hands to control my car for future mods. And I wont have to repay to tune everytime.
Thanks
I have a knowledge of tuning with AFR and such. Closed and open loop. But this knowledge is with Buicks only not LS1s.
How hard is it for a beginner to learn HPtuners?
I hate to buy the software and then wind up paying someone to tune it.
I am looking at getting it just for the simple fact that if I could learn the software that I will have the power in my hands to control my car for future mods. And I wont have to repay to tune everytime.
Thanks
08-10-2009, 09:57 AM
#2
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I wouldn't say hard. A lot of trivia to absorb and
get your mind around, how GM does things (and
there are a lot of things, especially in drivability
details). But it always comes back to the real
world, the software is just details of how.
If you've got the shade tree gut for it, then it's
just swapping feeler gauges and timing light and
jet assortment for a mouse. Only the car talks to
you (figuring out when it's lying, is another bit).
Thing about owning your own tools is, nobody is
going to force you to go at it quicker than you
can pick up the knowledge. Not like a $$$ shop
where here comes your hour, now get outta here.
get your mind around, how GM does things (and
there are a lot of things, especially in drivability
details). But it always comes back to the real
world, the software is just details of how.
If you've got the shade tree gut for it, then it's
just swapping feeler gauges and timing light and
jet assortment for a mouse. Only the car talks to
you (figuring out when it's lying, is another bit).
Thing about owning your own tools is, nobody is
going to force you to go at it quicker than you
can pick up the knowledge. Not like a $$$ shop
where here comes your hour, now get outta here.
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08-11-2009, 09:04 PM
#8
TECH Senior Member
The software package (whichever one) has user manuals that you will read to find out how to operate the software...
But you will have to read more extensively if you want to learn how to tune/adjust your PCM's calibrations... e.g. start at the stickies in this forum, and look at other material such as books (e.g. Hartmann, Strader, Banish) and the various tuning forums... like you said, you have knowledge of AFR tuning with Buicks... you have to find out how to do this and more with the LS1 PCM.
But you will have to read more extensively if you want to learn how to tune/adjust your PCM's calibrations... e.g. start at the stickies in this forum, and look at other material such as books (e.g. Hartmann, Strader, Banish) and the various tuning forums... like you said, you have knowledge of AFR tuning with Buicks... you have to find out how to do this and more with the LS1 PCM.
08-13-2009, 01:22 AM
#9
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I won't specifically address which software is 'better' or easier, but I will try to give you a honest assessment.
I think a lot has to do with a person's personality, their patience, persistence, and most importantly the ability to think of multiple variables at the same time.
I think that is what some people underestimate. For some, taking an engine apart might be easier. It is because multiple tables and parameters can effect the same result. Like bucking or surging. It could be air, spark, fuel, one of the above, or all three parameters that contribute to it..
If you are easily frustrated it might be hard. Granted, this is not like studying Calculus III, but I might have spent 300-400 hours logging and tuning before I felt like I had 'mastered' most of it. But, I would go item by item through every parameter to see how it affected my tune.
I hope I am not scaring you out of it. But, I am trying to be very honest. I have a pretty decent math/physics background and it was a challenge at time.
While pure conjecture and speculation, it is possible that the drop-out rate may be over 25%..perhaps only 50% really stick with it. I say this because if you look at multiple tuning boards..perhaps only 6-12 people's name will come up time and time again. They seem to be the one's who really know it well.
So is learning it hard? I would say it is moderately difficult. Is 'mastering' it hard? I would say for some no, but for many yes it is.
That is as objective of an answer I can give you. Granted it is just one person's opinion, and I have tried to be fair in evaluating your question while being sensitive to the software vendors.
The bottom line for me is that it was worth it!
Good luck.
..WeathermanShawn..
I think a lot has to do with a person's personality, their patience, persistence, and most importantly the ability to think of multiple variables at the same time.
I think that is what some people underestimate. For some, taking an engine apart might be easier. It is because multiple tables and parameters can effect the same result. Like bucking or surging. It could be air, spark, fuel, one of the above, or all three parameters that contribute to it..
If you are easily frustrated it might be hard. Granted, this is not like studying Calculus III, but I might have spent 300-400 hours logging and tuning before I felt like I had 'mastered' most of it. But, I would go item by item through every parameter to see how it affected my tune.
I hope I am not scaring you out of it. But, I am trying to be very honest. I have a pretty decent math/physics background and it was a challenge at time.
While pure conjecture and speculation, it is possible that the drop-out rate may be over 25%..perhaps only 50% really stick with it. I say this because if you look at multiple tuning boards..perhaps only 6-12 people's name will come up time and time again. They seem to be the one's who really know it well.
So is learning it hard? I would say it is moderately difficult. Is 'mastering' it hard? I would say for some no, but for many yes it is.
That is as objective of an answer I can give you. Granted it is just one person's opinion, and I have tried to be fair in evaluating your question while being sensitive to the software vendors.
The bottom line for me is that it was worth it!
Good luck.
..WeathermanShawn..
08-13-2009, 09:34 PM
#10
Hptuners is powerful and can do pretty much anything you want. At the same time the hptuners forum is not as helpful as it could be. Its full mostly of professional tuners and they dont' like to share their secrets. There are not very many tunes in the repository but talking mostly hard core stuff like my car meaning FI builds.
For a simple NA car tuning is pretty darn easy and if you stay with smaller injectors since you dont need to go big unless you go to big power mods again talking FI then tuning with hptuners is easy enough.
You can look at other simlar tunes and just enter in the values you want. I am not sure how much easier to use efi live is or how much more helpful their board is.
With what I know now about hptuners support I would likely have gone standalone.
But again you dont' need that. Hptuners will work fine for you. Heck a predator woudl work fine and might be even better option.
For a simple NA car tuning is pretty darn easy and if you stay with smaller injectors since you dont need to go big unless you go to big power mods again talking FI then tuning with hptuners is easy enough.
You can look at other simlar tunes and just enter in the values you want. I am not sure how much easier to use efi live is or how much more helpful their board is.
With what I know now about hptuners support I would likely have gone standalone.
But again you dont' need that. Hptuners will work fine for you. Heck a predator woudl work fine and might be even better option.
08-13-2009, 10:06 PM
#11
Hptuners is powerful and can do pretty much anything you want. At the same time the hptuners forum is not as helpful as it could be. Its full mostly of professional tuners and they dont' like to share their secrets. There are not very many tunes in the repository but talking mostly hard core stuff like my car meaning FI builds.
For a simple NA car tuning is pretty darn easy and if you stay with smaller injectors since you dont need to go big unless you go to big power mods again talking FI then tuning with hptuners is easy enough.
You can look at other simlar tunes and just enter in the values you want. I am not sure how much easier to use efi live is or how much more helpful their board is.
With what I know now about hptuners support I would likely have gone standalone.
But again you dont' need that. Hptuners will work fine for you. Heck a predator woudl work fine and might be even better option.
For a simple NA car tuning is pretty darn easy and if you stay with smaller injectors since you dont need to go big unless you go to big power mods again talking FI then tuning with hptuners is easy enough.
You can look at other simlar tunes and just enter in the values you want. I am not sure how much easier to use efi live is or how much more helpful their board is.
With what I know now about hptuners support I would likely have gone standalone.
But again you dont' need that. Hptuners will work fine for you. Heck a predator woudl work fine and might be even better option.
Exactly why it isn't for everyone.
08-14-2009, 12:48 AM
#12
Hptuners guys generally dance around any direct question. You can sometimes get a straight answer but its pretty rare. They need two boards,one for the pro tuners and one for people that have bought
hptuners spent like 600 bucks and really should be able to get the help to tune their cars with it. Why should I buy hptuners and then pay a pro tuner. If I was going to do that would not need to buy hptuners at all just let them tune my car with it .
Now there is guy selling data to get the 60s and other injectors like 80s to work right for 250 bucks. I may have to buy his dvd since as said no one is giving out proper data so not much choice. But stand by what I said.If you have a basic NA build than its not that hard to get it to run ok with hptuners.
And I have talked to many people that feel the same way about the hptuners forum.
08-14-2009, 01:11 AM
#13
... I can't even get someone to give out the proper values for 60 pound injectors!...
Hptuners guys generally dance around any direct question. You can sometimes get a straight answer but its pretty rare. They need two boards,one for the pro tuners and one for people that have bought
hptuners spent like 600 bucks and really should be able to get the help to tune their cars with it. Why should I buy hptuners and then pay a pro tuner. If I was going to do that would not need to buy hptuners at all just let them tune my car with it .
.....
And I have talked to many people that feel the same way about the hptuners forum.
Hptuners guys generally dance around any direct question. You can sometimes get a straight answer but its pretty rare. They need two boards,one for the pro tuners and one for people that have bought
hptuners spent like 600 bucks and really should be able to get the help to tune their cars with it. Why should I buy hptuners and then pay a pro tuner. If I was going to do that would not need to buy hptuners at all just let them tune my car with it .
.....
And I have talked to many people that feel the same way about the hptuners forum.
I have watched you pass over straight answers and continue on one path or another (like flashing back and forth between years over and over) and not giving ITs enough time to learn and then equating funny initial starting with the year OS's... Let me ask, did you even note things like initial IAC position after each write entire?
The tuners on that board (or any) don't work for HPTuners, they are not there to spoon feed. It's better to understand the how than to just some value you plug in but don't understand. Buying the software doesn't make me or anyone else a tuner, you have to study and research to see how things work. Of course this is not as easy as a standalone, but it has the ability to provide a better driving experience when it is done right.
I'm not trying to come off as pompous or arrogant at all, but look at what you asking to have given to you.
Last edited by Frost; 08-14-2009 at 02:25 AM.
08-14-2009, 01:23 AM
#14
First off, who refers to using a MAF translator or a Hypertech as "tuning"?
There are plenty of guys there that are happy to answer questions. Even still, some questions don't have exact answers. You just have to understand the software and what the engine wants and figure it out yourself.
As far as paying someone to get answers. You're only referring to Greg Banish? Who is, from my understanding, bench testing injectors and finding out the real injector data that even the manufactures can't give you. Hardly what I would call paying someone to help you tune your car.
It's not the easiest thing in the world for lots of people. And the "pros" didn't get to where they are by reading some boards. Sometimes you just have to get your feet wet to really know. HPTuners is a great place to start.
I used tunercat long ago and was completely lost and there was no board to ask questions on. Now after having HPTuners, all that TC stuff makes perfect sense.
About not having "hardcore stuff" in the repository is just because it's not needed and in most cases would cause more harm than good.
It's easier to start learning with a basically stock car because there isn't much that needs to be changed. Then on the other hand it's hard to understand some of the tables until you have something that is really sensitive to small changes, but that's the learning curve. It's really hard to say that anyone can do it, until they actually try it. Which means spending the money. If you aren't sure, then I would keep an eye on the classifieds and at least try to get a used one if you decide to by.
There are plenty of guys there that are happy to answer questions. Even still, some questions don't have exact answers. You just have to understand the software and what the engine wants and figure it out yourself.
As far as paying someone to get answers. You're only referring to Greg Banish? Who is, from my understanding, bench testing injectors and finding out the real injector data that even the manufactures can't give you. Hardly what I would call paying someone to help you tune your car.
It's not the easiest thing in the world for lots of people. And the "pros" didn't get to where they are by reading some boards. Sometimes you just have to get your feet wet to really know. HPTuners is a great place to start.
I used tunercat long ago and was completely lost and there was no board to ask questions on. Now after having HPTuners, all that TC stuff makes perfect sense.
About not having "hardcore stuff" in the repository is just because it's not needed and in most cases would cause more harm than good.
It's easier to start learning with a basically stock car because there isn't much that needs to be changed. Then on the other hand it's hard to understand some of the tables until you have something that is really sensitive to small changes, but that's the learning curve. It's really hard to say that anyone can do it, until they actually try it. Which means spending the money. If you aren't sure, then I would keep an eye on the classifieds and at least try to get a used one if you decide to by.
08-14-2009, 05:15 AM
#15
it can be a steep learning curve, but using hptuners to a v8 fbody is a hell of a lot easier than some of these newer cars with engine management features that can only be attributed to alien technology from the future.
tuning my 2007 impala is a nightmare compared to my 1999 camaro.
i say get the tuning software and do as much as you're comfortable with. if you find yourself in a tough spot, have a reputable tuner fix up your tune (make sure the bastard doesn't lock it). you can then take a look at the tuner's work and learn from that so that you (likely) won't have to pay for re-tunes in the future.
tuning my 2007 impala is a nightmare compared to my 1999 camaro.
i say get the tuning software and do as much as you're comfortable with. if you find yourself in a tough spot, have a reputable tuner fix up your tune (make sure the bastard doesn't lock it). you can then take a look at the tuner's work and learn from that so that you (likely) won't have to pay for re-tunes in the future.
