Cam Tuning Questions
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Cam Tuning Questions Jsut got my car back with my cam install. My cam is a 228/232 .588/.595 110+4..
Here are my questions, i already had to take the car back 2 times now.. And i still do not think that it is right!
Any help would be greatly appreciated..
Here are my problems
1) at around 1400 - 1600 RPMs the car will buck. That is annoying
2) at 2000 RPMs in 4th or 5th gear you give the car 1/2 - 3/4 throttle and the car will hesiatate for a second (it has to hops to it) then it will go..
Those are the only 2 problems that i have that are repeating. I took the car in b4 for the odle hang... that was fixed.
I also want to idle to be at 850. it is set at 950 saw it on the computer while my car was running hokked up to the OBDOII.. But the tuner said that he tried to lower the idle and that at warm/cold starts the car would struggle for a bit to come alive....
Any ideas on what i can tell my tuner? Patrick G recomended that i post it here. He also gave me some suggestions.. But he said more help to come here.. Please help. I can not deal with the bucking.
And here is what Patrick G had told me in realtion to problem #1 and #2
PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
EDIT: i added the Graphs
In the first post i added the graphs.. and i will put them here too
Lost my original pull that gave me my numbers...
FIRST PULL WITH CAM
I FORGOT WHAT THIS GRAPH SHOW
NICE A:F
CORRECTED NUMBERS
Here are my questions, i already had to take the car back 2 times now.. And i still do not think that it is right!
Any help would be greatly appreciated..
Here are my problems
1) at around 1400 - 1600 RPMs the car will buck. That is annoying
2) at 2000 RPMs in 4th or 5th gear you give the car 1/2 - 3/4 throttle and the car will hesiatate for a second (it has to hops to it) then it will go..
Those are the only 2 problems that i have that are repeating. I took the car in b4 for the odle hang... that was fixed.
I also want to idle to be at 850. it is set at 950 saw it on the computer while my car was running hokked up to the OBDOII.. But the tuner said that he tried to lower the idle and that at warm/cold starts the car would struggle for a bit to come alive....
Any ideas on what i can tell my tuner? Patrick G recomended that i post it here. He also gave me some suggestions.. But he said more help to come here.. Please help. I can not deal with the bucking.
And here is what Patrick G had told me in realtion to problem #1 and #2
PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Patrick G
The cam you're running is actually not that big. The problems you're experiencing are totally tune related. First thing you have to do is set your base idle timing right (probably 22 degrees). Then, set your idle speed to 850rpm. Next, see to it that your IAC counts are between 30-50 at warm idle with ac off. After that, set your base running airflow to where your short term idle trims are closer to 0. Most likely, you'll need to reduce airflow. Once your airflow is set, you can begin VE tuning. I'm pretty sure your A/F ratio is all over the place at those lower revs, but 80% of the bucking and surging problems are related to running airflow being off. Get the airflow right, then to a good VE tune, rescale your MAF (if you're using one) and you should be a lot closer. FWIW, you can make a T-Rex have good street manners with the right tune, but without it, it's a MF to daily drive. 
In the first post i added the graphs.. and i will put them here too
Lost my original pull that gave me my numbers...
FIRST PULL WITH CAM I FORGOT WHAT THIS GRAPH SHOW NICE A:F CORRECTED NUMBERS Last edited by TORCHD 02 TA; Feb 16, 2007 at 08:30 PM.
I too would like to know the fix on this...I've dealt with a few cams that had a good amount of overlap that had bucking issues that I could never fully get rid of. Might be time to invest in some tuning software of your own...going back & forth to a tuner 2, 3, 4 + times aint fun...sometimes ends up being easier to do it on your own...thats what I ended up doing.
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Originally Posted by foff667
I too would like to know the fix on this...I've dealt with a few cams that had a good amount of overlap that had bucking issues that I could never fully get rid of. Might be time to invest in some tuning software of your own...going back & forth to a tuner 2, 3, 4 + times aint fun...sometimes ends up being easier to do it on your own...thats what I ended up doing.
Yeah it is a PITA to keep running to the tuner. he is only 45 mins away but still. i have to worry about getting a ride back and a ride there...
I don't know how to tune my own car
If the tune doesn't take care of it, you could probably mask most of the issue with some steeper gearing in the rear. I'm beginning to think a cam wasn't the best mod for you...you've been posting a lot lately.
yeah personally i had a 231/237 112lsa cam that had alot of bucking, but i had an a4 with 2.73 gears...it was just a matter of tweaking the lockup points so I didn't have the issue and it worked fine for me. M6's you either need to find the cure completely(difficult to impossible in some cases) or get higher numerical gearing to get above that range of rpm.
Bucking is a fairly common issue with cams with alot of overlap & I havent heard a clearcut way to fix it...i hear alot of "well its your fueling" or "its your timing" or "its your airflow" if someone finds a clearcut cure that works everytime I'd love to hear it.
As far as your hesitation issue...I ended up changing a couple of the idle tables and was able to give myself a hesitation issue...just turned them back a little until it went away...not sure if thats your issue or not, but possible. To get a cam someone else chooses for you to run right isnt always easy, thats why most shops have their own cams they specialize in because they have a consistant tune/result. Alot of shops go for the cams with less overlap which usually means they are easier to drive which is what many people prefer. :shrug:
Anyways good luck, and we all started somewhere with tuning
Me=1 shop + 4 trips back & forth 60 miles each way=HPTuners FTW
Bucking is a fairly common issue with cams with alot of overlap & I havent heard a clearcut way to fix it...i hear alot of "well its your fueling" or "its your timing" or "its your airflow" if someone finds a clearcut cure that works everytime I'd love to hear it.
As far as your hesitation issue...I ended up changing a couple of the idle tables and was able to give myself a hesitation issue...just turned them back a little until it went away...not sure if thats your issue or not, but possible. To get a cam someone else chooses for you to run right isnt always easy, thats why most shops have their own cams they specialize in because they have a consistant tune/result. Alot of shops go for the cams with less overlap which usually means they are easier to drive which is what many people prefer. :shrug:
Anyways good luck, and we all started somewhere with tuning
Me=1 shop + 4 trips back & forth 60 miles each way=HPTuners FTW
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Originally Posted by MeentSS02
If the tune doesn't take care of it, you could probably mask most of the issue with some steeper gearing in the rear. I'm beginning to think a cam wasn't the best mod for you...you've been posting a lot lately.
well, i was thinking that a 4.10 would get rid of the that problem too... Why do you think that a cam was not the best mod for me then? I knew all the risks going into it. Just thought that tuner with all his experience would be able to get the problem solved
Originally Posted by TORCHD 02 TA
well, i was thinking that a 4.10 would get rid of the that problem too... Why do you think that a cam was not the best mod for me then? I knew all the risks going into it. Just thought that tuner with all his experience would be able to get the problem solved
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Originally Posted by TORCHD 02 TA
well, i was thinking that a 4.10 would get rid of the that problem too... Why do you think that a cam was not the best mod for me then? I knew all the risks going into it. Just thought that tuner with all his experience would be able to get the problem solved
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What to tell your tuner...Timing, fueling, Air; not much more to it than that. You have two choices 1) Learn to tune 2) Find somebody who can. If for whatever reason you refuse to do #1 then it is imperative to go thru with #2. This board is really good at doing one or the other...a miss mash of what you are professing, not so good. We'll be here when you make up your mind. 
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Originally Posted by foff667
yeah personally i had a 231/237 112lsa cam that had alot of bucking, but i had an a4 with 2.73 gears...it was just a matter of tweaking the lockup points so I didn't have the issue and it worked fine for me. M6's you either need to find the cure completely(difficult to impossible in some cases) or get higher numerical gearing to get above that range of rpm.
Bucking is a fairly common issue with cams with alot of overlap & I havent heard a clearcut way to fix it...i hear alot of "well its your fueling" or "its your timing" or "its your airflow" if someone finds a clearcut cure that works everytime I'd love to hear it.
As far as your hesitation issue...I ended up changing a couple of the idle tables and was able to give myself a hesitation issue...just turned them back a little until it went away...not sure if thats your issue or not, but possible. To get a cam someone else chooses for you to run right isnt always easy, thats why most shops have their own cams they specialize in because they have a consistant tune/result. Alot of shops go for the cams with less overlap which usually means they are easier to drive which is what many people prefer. :shrug:
Anyways good luck, and we all started somewhere with tuning
Me=1 shop + 4 trips back & forth 60 miles each way=HPTuners FTW
Bucking is a fairly common issue with cams with alot of overlap & I havent heard a clearcut way to fix it...i hear alot of "well its your fueling" or "its your timing" or "its your airflow" if someone finds a clearcut cure that works everytime I'd love to hear it.
As far as your hesitation issue...I ended up changing a couple of the idle tables and was able to give myself a hesitation issue...just turned them back a little until it went away...not sure if thats your issue or not, but possible. To get a cam someone else chooses for you to run right isnt always easy, thats why most shops have their own cams they specialize in because they have a consistant tune/result. Alot of shops go for the cams with less overlap which usually means they are easier to drive which is what many people prefer. :shrug:
Anyways good luck, and we all started somewhere with tuning
Me=1 shop + 4 trips back & forth 60 miles each way=HPTuners FTW
You did not have stall with your A4? Cuz i know someone with a 3600 stall and has 2.73s.. no bucking b/c of the stall.. but that is another story.. And it does seem that these M6 cars are picky when it comes to tuning.. IT NEEDS TO BE PERFECT! So either i talk more to the tuner or i get a 4.10.
Going back to bucking.. 10* is not that much??? i have heard the same thing. fuel, timing and air.... I chose my cam with some help with Patrick G and i did a TON of research.. as far as the hesitation... well i hope that it is in the idle table to help....
Originally Posted by brad8266
Every different cam needs a different tune custom to it. Your best bet is to buy software and start doing it yourself. read the stickies here and get prepared to ask lots of questions. I learned to tune right here in this forum and a little bit of google help. There is a lot of good info in this forum alone. be sure to read the stickys here there is a lot in them.
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Originally Posted by MeentSS02
Watching your exhaust threads told me that you wouldn't be happy with less than perfection...cams usually involve a compromise of some sort...just observations on my part.
LOL at my exhasut threads.. that there is an easy fix though
But i did do the research on the cam.. again it is a tunning problem that needs to be addressed IMO.. Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Doc
What to tell your tuner...Timing, fueling, Air; not much more to it than that. You have two choices 1) Learn to tune 2) Find somebody who can. If for whatever reason you refuse to do #1 then it is imperative to go thru with #2. This board is really good at doing one or the other...a miss mash of what you are professing, not so good. We'll be here when you make up your mind.
I will talk more to the tuner to see if he can help more..... Man i would not know where to start if i were to get my own software.. i would be afraid i fry the PCM
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Originally Posted by brad8266
Every different cam needs a different tune custom to it. Your best bet is to buy software and start doing it yourself. read the stickies here and get prepared to ask lots of questions. I learned to tune right here in this forum and a little bit of google help. There is a lot of good info in this forum alone. be sure to read the stickys here there is a lot in them.
you thought i asked a lot of cam/exhasut questions... what and see what questions i would ask if i got my own SW
Originally Posted by TORCHD 02 TA
LOL at my exhasut threads.. that there is an easy fix though But i did do the research on the cam.. again it is a tunning problem that needs to be addressed IMO..
But i did do the research on the cam.. again it is a tunning problem that needs to be addressed IMO..
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
... Unfortunately, that adds expense and a steep learning curve that not all people like.
Originally Posted by TORCHD 02 TA
You did not have stall with your A4? Cuz i know someone with a 3600 stall and has 2.73s.. no bucking b/c of the stall.. but that is another story.. And it does seem that these M6 cars are picky when it comes to tuning.. IT NEEDS TO BE PERFECT! So either i talk more to the tuner or i get a 4.10.
Going back to bucking.. 10* is not that much??? i have heard the same thing. fuel, timing and air.... I chose my cam with some help with Patrick G and i did a TON of research.. as far as the hesitation... well i hope that it is in the idle table to help....
Going back to bucking.. 10* is not that much??? i have heard the same thing. fuel, timing and air.... I chose my cam with some help with Patrick G and i did a TON of research.. as far as the hesitation... well i hope that it is in the idle table to help....
Originally Posted by TORCHD 02 TA
I will talk more to the tuner to see if he can help more..... Man i would not know where to start if i were to get my own software.. i would be afraid i fry the PCM
I bet you the timing is off if it's not the AFR. I noticed mine likes a little more than 40* around 1600 rpms as long as it's constant. It'll look like a flat shelf on the timing graph - see top portion of graph below. The problem is, you need to command your timing in the base spark tables with an M6 because the MPH threshold is set at 255. Autos have it set much lower (like 3 I believe). What this means is when you let off the gas, it'll use the timing set in the Base Spark In Gear table instead of the High Octane Spark Table for an M6 unless you change the threshold. The BSIG spark table isn't as good because it doesn't have the resolution of the High Octane table and it's also where idle timing is commanded. So, if you set the decel timing right, all is well and good on decel...but then your idle timing is affected. I plan on playing with it a little this spring (once the snow melts) to see if I can fix it by changing the threshold.
The other option is to have him try and fix it with the throttle cracker or throttle follower tables. If you add in a little more air through the IAC, that might help cure some of the surging. Just don't add too much or you'll get a cruise control effect.
The other option is to have him try and fix it with the throttle cracker or throttle follower tables. If you add in a little more air through the IAC, that might help cure some of the surging. Just don't add too much or you'll get a cruise control effect.
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Originally Posted by MeentSS02
Check your PMs...I may have a suggestion for you. And that's the problem with your cam though...that tune is going to need to be spot on. It isn't right now, and I'm sure it is getting frustrating to keep going back and not get it fixed. Really, I'd like to keep you from throwing money at the problem (in the way of tuning software, gears, etc), because that's how I deal with issues, and it hasn't done much for me
Ok i will check my PMs.. And i will respond