Hello Firehawk purists. I put a deposit down on this vehicle. It is going to cost a fair amount to get the paint done. https://ls1tech.com/forums/market/1965238
It has 59k miles which seems to put it just at the range for between low and high mileage. Possibly worth $18k after paint.

Should I leave the original 1999 engine with 59k miles? Or should I replace it with a 14kmi LS6 longblock (I already own) with LS6 intake (SLP w/ egr) and a custom cam that makes around 340rwhp with stock 2000 exhaust.
I really don't like how the rear of these handle stock, and after racing them for 20 years have enough Strano setup suspension around to make it handle on rails.

For me, it would represent how GM should/could have made. Do you guys think these changes would raise the value, or possibly lower it?

 

Modifications you make to any car will raise red flags with buyers. Modifications to special edition vehicles are big red flags, if you care about resale value.

A lot of us have a long list of gripes about how GM made its vehicles, but how they left GM, or SLP, in this case is how they left. Buyers of GMMG Blackbirds, Firehawks and such are buying them because of the way they left the factory. If you are concerned about resale value, keep it with its original spec.

 

That is totally up to you...In my personal experience... Unmolested Numbers Matching Original cars (even if they are a little rough around the edges) Always bring more Money than highly modified cars...
Modified cars always Set off alot of red flags...Most serious buyers will walk right past it without a second look...
As They are only original once...

 

In regards to this particular car, my view is the opposite of the above posts.

In this case, the need for restoration precludes it from being a highly valuable *original* collector vehicle. Even with fresh paint, this isn't the sort of car that will appeal to the highest level of 4th gen collectors looking for a top tier original example; there is no risk of alienating those buyers as that ship has already sailed IMO. There are still LS1 Firehawks with 3 and 4-digit mileage that pop up on occasion for the most discriminating collectors, and plenty more with comparable-or-lower 5-digit mileage that have lived easier lives, ones that don't need restoration and still have good to excellent original paint, trim, and interior - those are the sort of cars (especially the former) that would be hurt by modifications. But for this one, the pool of potential buyers will not include the aforementioned top tier collectors, thus modifications that are not overly radical or polarizing won't likely do much to impact value either way. Of the group of buyers shopping in this segment, those who would be turned off by that list of modifications will likely be offset by a contingent of folks who will appreciate them.

Bottom line, no serious collector would consider this car without some extensive restoration - the cost of which would likely exceed any sale price this car would be able to attain in the foreseeable future. So chasing after those buyers isn't a goal with which I would personally concern myself.

 

Is there something wrong w/ the 59K LS1 that it needs replacement? If not, why bother changing it in the first place? There's probably alot of life left in that motor. While I agree w/ RPM's assessment that its probably too late to be worrying too much about originality of your car, an LS1 is only a few minor bolt-ons away form LS6 performance. I'd save the $$ on the engine swap and put that in your pocket (or bolt-ons to the LS1), THAT is the way to maximize your cost vs. ROI on this car. Find a more deserving project for your LS6 block, or sell it.

BTW, in '01-'02, some LS1s were reportedly built using LS6 blocks, so "making it like GM should've built it" really isn't a new thing.

 

Have to admit I didn't click the link, and didn't realize what a state it's in. I agree with @RPM WS6 that the ship has sailed on originality and value as a collectors car. Reading your original question it came across as, if I put paint into this car it will be work X, so if I do Y it will be work X+Y=Z. Whatever you put into it, you likely won't get back.

To me I'd be asking a different set of questions, like
My project is this, and I plan to start with this car. Is this car's in its state a good starting point for its price?

 

I will be selling my '02 Anniversary SS very soon, I've replaced all of the Suspension with UMI adjustable and have aftermarket wheels. Are you saying I downgraded the car by doing these things?

Chad

 

How many miles are on it? If it is not a low mile example, it will depend on who it's being sold to. The average John Q Public, who is looking for an SLP SS Camaro? Yah, in general aftermarket changes are going to raise flags, especially on a low mile example. Someone who is looking to drag race, or auto cross it - depending on which way you went might be ok with the changes.

 

Mechanically, NO. But in terms of resale value, I think it depends on the mileage you have on your car and its collision history. Low-mile cars that have never been in a wreck will almost always pull higher resale value if they are stock / unmodified, especially for someone looking for a collector item or a known clean-sheet of paper to work on. Modified cars, regardless of mileage, tends to bring out questions in the mind of buyers of the quality of the modifications, or what other shady things may have been done to the car. Additionally, collectors will tend to pass on modified cars, so your market for a buyer has shrunk. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of the "right" buyer coming along and loving your low-mile modified car and paying top dollar for it, its just less likely to happen.

 

Thank you, you hit the nail right on the head. I was just about to edit my own post to include that bolded bit. If your two concerns are resale value and appeal, modified cars are generally trouble for the reason you stated - they invite suspicion and questioning about "what else was done?"

 

Excellent post, I agree completely and have written similar posts when this question has come up in the past.

 

Car has 56k on it and has been sitting in my garage for over 13 yrs except for one week about 2 years ago.
I pulled it out to work on a Truck and left the car in the driveway and Texas had a SUPER STORM producing softball size hail and the car got pummeled!! Front Glass shattered, both Rear Qtr Panels looks like you hit it repeatedly with a 4 Iron, the hood has cracks in the paint which I bet is in the fiberglass itself and the right side mirror got hit.
The T-Tops and the rear window were not damaged neither were the front fenders, the nose, the rear wing or the rear bumper. I would guestimate about $4-6k worth of damage, but I am not an estimator or a body guy.
The original block for the car is in the garage sitting next to a 383 out of my Truck. I was going to use all of the internals from that motor and put those into the factory block, with a little machining of course.
The brand new Performa-Built transmission that is 13 yrs old and the brand new Vigilante 4200 stall converter for the car is also in the garage. The New Detroit Locker, new Richmond 4:10 gears and Moser Axels are in the car but it has never been driven with those installed. I also have every fix/stiffener/brace/bearing or welded on component known to mankind on the rear end to support 1000+HP.
As mentioned before, all of the original Suspension for the car has been replaced with UMI Adjustable including Strange Adjustable Coil Overs in all four corners.
I can't pull all of this stuff off, don't have anything to replace it with or the energy to do it. It's either sell the car with everything (for a price) or keep letting it sit until I have the cash to put it back together.
I still got the Anniversary Book, Key Fob, Air Pressure Gauge, Pen and Post it Note that all have 35th Ann badging. I had the 35 Ann patch sewed on my coat!

Thanks for the input, cheers!

Chad

 

Based on the description above, nobody in the "show car" market is going to be looking at this as a current candidate anyway, so I don't think suspension modifications (or not) are going to hurt the value or sale prospects. Sounds like there is currently no engine in the car, so anyone buying this will have to be the type looking for a project right out of the gate (unless you are planning to reassemble it first).

 

As someone who has considered buying a low mileage Firehawk lately and someone who has owned quite a few third and fourth generation F-bodies I'll chime in here. When you are willing to pay the upper end of the asking prices these things are going for, you want to look for a few things.

Mileage - Low mileage cars are always going to bring in more money than higher mileage ones all other factors being equal. Its true that there are five digit mileage cars in horrible shape and 150,000 mile cars that show relatively little wear and are all original. But with lower mileage cars, you are more likely to get one that is closer to like-new condition. Four digit mileage cars should generally look like they are brand new and six digit cars are typically rattle traps that have a lot of issues ranging from paint and interior wear to major mechanical issues.

Originality - While condition and originality aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, the two are linked. A car that has a ton of mods to it has likely been beat on even if it has relatively low mileage. Even if it is in good shape, not everyone's mods will suit the taste of the masses and even if I believed a car wasn't abused, I have to factor in the cost of restoring that car to its original condition. I saw an ad today in fact for a sub-5000 mile Camaro Z28 and it had a ton of awful mods to it. The tail lights, headlights, marker lamps, antenna, wheels, grill, steering wheel, shift ****, radiator shroud, airbox, and air conditioning are all either missing or are aftermarket crap. They want $26,000+ for a car that's going to take a couple grand to restore to its factory condition at the very least. This assumes that the car's condition is as good as the pictures suggest. You never know how well the work was done. Part of having a low mileage car like this is being able to enjoy the cars as they were when new. You aren't going to be able to do that a heavily modified car.

The thing is, someone who is looking for a four or mid-five digit mileage car is probably only going to drive it a few hundred miles a year. You do not want to have to pay top dollar just to have to throw more money at a restoration. In the case of the aforementioned car, you need air conditioning components and you have to track down all the stuff that was taken off the car. In fact, seeing that many mods to a car with that kind of mileage makes me wonder if the odometer reading is accurate or not. A car like that looks like its a fraud at best. It's a horrible deal at worst given the price of the car and the cost to restore it.

When I see aftermarket parts, I have no idea how good the quality of work was on the car. I'm turned off by how the car may have been treated and what I'm going to have to do in order to fix it. A car that's heavily modified can be a good deal, but not for prices in line with ultra-low mileage cars costing $20,000+. More specifically, the reason you want a Firehawk isn't because of what it has going for it over the factory car. It's providence, documentation and a unique history. It's more important for it to be numbers matching than your garden variety Trans Am. If there is nothing wrong with the original engine, do not remove it and replace it with something else.

Condition - Again, condition and originality aren't necessarily mutually exclusive but they do go hand in hand most of the time. If a car is in bad condition, I don't care how original it is. A car in bad condition could be low mileage, etc. and it just doesn't matter. Repainted cars and restored cars never quite capture the look and feel of the original. Even when well done they are either too perfect or feel off in some way. That part is hard to explain but as they say: "a car is only original once." There is truth to that. A car that's been repainted might be hiding body work repaired to varying levels of competency. If I see the factory engine has been changed, I simply assume someone modified the **** out of the car and then blew it up. There is no reason to pay low mileage car prices when I can buy a 100k car that's got decent original paint on it and modify it how I see fit.

To put a finer point on it, when I see things like aftermarket suspension, I suspect the car has been driven hard. I don't even like to see aftermarket radios in these cars when they are for sale because I worry about the quality of the stereo install. I've had to undo poor quality installations ands repair wiring harnesses far too often to want to deal with that on an otherwise pristine original car. You already have a car that needs paint and probably interior work. If you do your job right you can reclaim some of its lost value. If you change the engine out you'll only be dropping the value even further. Don't do it.

I have a Camaro SS that I bought as a roller for $1,000 because it had good paint that could be corrected and look nice rather than needing a full repaint. The motor was blown by the original owner and removed prior to my purchasing the car. It will never be a numbers matching car no matter what I do. No matter how many NOS parts I track down I never expect the car to command the same prices as a low mileage pristine example of the same car even if mine does go faster.

 

Just as a side note, 4th gens don't have numbers matching engines. They have original factory engines or in some cases, a period correct replacement or a truck engine.

 

The VIN# for the car should be etched on the block if I am not mistaken.

 

Agreed. Originality just doesn't matter to me if the car is in poor condition; being able to say "it's original" loses its luster if it looks like it sat in a field for 30 years.

Also agreed. I call it "magic smoke"; this is part of the original assembly line process that can't be exactly replicated no matter how nicely the car is restored (even more so for modern cars, when assembly line processes had become more automated). That's not to say that a restored or partially restored car (I have two of them) can't be super nice of course, but there is something a little different about one that's still exceptionally nice and hasn't been touched in any significant way since the assembly line. It's the "time capsule" experience in a more genuine way than with a restored car.

But I'm not so sure I completely agree here:

Perhaps something like this specific Firehawk in question might be interesting to a collector when it's 40 or 50 years old, but in the present market this is not now, nor will it be in the foreseeable future, any sort of car that will generate serious collector interest. As such, the OP might actually find a better market for the car with a tastefully modded engine (one that's still totally daily-driveable but makes noticeably more power than stock) that would appeal to the hotrod/modified crowd, vs. simply being able to say that it's a factory original engine in a car that's already well beyond the point of being an "original" show car.

There are still a lot of folks who like to buy these cars as weekend/fair weather/cruise night toys, and often they want them to have better performance than stock but still drive like a relatively normal car (not a race car), so if you can find that balance then you will have a market. I think shooting for "collector" value on a car of this era which needs restoration is a losing battle for the foreseeable future. In other words, in this case I wouldn't worry about it - better to just do whatever makes the OP happy as I don't think resale on a car like this would be much different with the original LS1 vs. a mildly built low mile LS6 long block (in fact the power upgrade will make it more appealing and potentially more valuable to the group mentioned above).

 

You make some good points. However, mods rarely add actual value to a car. That's one of the reasons why you can dump so much money into this hobby and never get anything close to your investment back out of it. A heavily modded car can certainly bring in some money, but its not anywhere close to what it cost to build it. Part of the issue is that if you buy a modded car you'll probably end up undoing a lot of potentially questionable work by the previous owner. I think a factory car or one with only light bolt ons is almost always more desirable than something heavily modified unless the car was built by a reputable shop or something.

I could be wrong though.

 

This might be the time to buy a 4th gen before the prices start to climb.

 

prices are gonna continue to climb for sure. Hagerty already said the WS6 is going to be a huge money maker. I've seen piles of crap for close to $15k.