SSLTFOUR

You're going to change my mind Mark....I already know I'll regret it getting rid of either car!!!!! I'm greedy! I want the ones I have plus a few extra The worst part of getting rid of #7 is getting a call from you time to time reminding me what a mistake I make! Plus, you'll have all the bragging rights with yours! I'll feel like: I'm giving this whole decision another thought.

As far as the clock JD, I feel like: I thought it was an original.:

camarosss

It feels good to actually here from someone that has good knowledge about these cars. Thanks again Ron!

camarosss

Speedtoyz did'nt mean to **** anyone off, just simply trying to open some peoples eyes. This has been bothering me for a while, but as time goes by and more and more of these cars get changed, the more unoriginal ones become available. Like the 2001 Berger on ebay now. Thanks and good luck.

Ron@Vengeance

iTrader: (51)

Part #s are not the same.. LS1 block part # is 12559578 and LS6 block part # is 12561168.... LS1s are no longer manufactured and now everything is LS6/LS2/L92/LS7 etc etc...

If you think the only difference between an LS1/LS6 was the heads/intake you are sadly mistaken. blocks werent even made in the same country. LS6 has different ventilation holes for better efficiency, different aluminum for strength... Along with different rod bolts/coated pistons/LS6 cam/LS6 Heads ect ect

Any GMMG Phase III car fitted with the Phase III 427 Package has its original Phase III 427. No engine swapping going on with that or any other Phase for that matter.

ZL1 #14

Any LS6 motor that is changed out by GMMG for a phase 3 motor and the customer takes the $4000 credit, not sure what he gives for a LS1, is then sold to another privite person by Matt, apparently he has a lot of drag racers who can use these motors after they blow up theirs, I elected to keep mine, I am not sure he still offers the $4000 credit anymore I was going to do a 454 on my Tom Henry car and he really did not want the motor, he has 4 sitting in his shop right now.

02_Phase2_ZL1

Just whose eyes are you trying to open?

Any car that has been modified by GMMG is still an original car. If I sent my car back to Matt to have it converted to a Phase III, it is still original as he will supply all the documentation to document the upgrade from Phase II to Phase III plus if I keep the Phase II engine like some of the folks have done, that further adds to the value of it.

ZL1 #14

Correct..........

speedtoyz1

Sorry about your clock so are you going to sell #7 please email me the price when you do if you do .About kicking myself i just sold my gmmg car and it is killing me i want it back .MY EMAIL IS ABORN99@GMAIL.COM

SSLTFOUR

This is how you feel when you sell a GMMG car! I've been told by many that the DE car should stay put. I will email you when I get a moment and let you know my plans. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if I do decide to sell the Intimidator, the price will probably reflect the rarity of the car. I would say that the only other Intimidator I would want more than car #7 is car #3. I'm confident that this car will command a premium in the future due to several factors. First and most importantly, it's signed by Dale, it's a single digit car that represents his 7 Championships, it's a hardtop (I personally think its the way Dale would have optioned it) and it was delivered to Berger who put it in the Floyd Garrett Museum for several months. When it was eventually sold, it fetched a price of more than $71k! While all of this looks good on paper, I believe, and I'm sure other GMMG owners will agree, that it's the way the car looks, feels & drives that makes Matt, Ron, Mike and everyone else who works at or with GMMG such geniuses! My advice to you is if you don't end up buying my car, don't give up. As you know from owning one in the past, they're worth waiting for. I'll talk to you soon.

speedtoyz1

Will do thanks i think the last car signed and number 1 would be worth as much too?The unsigned cars might be a little less but im not sure about that.I guess thats personal choice.What do you think your car would bring on ebay ?

HOTROD1974

NEW.................. now tell us how you really feel. It is truly amazing when the uninformed post up like they know what they're talking about. It's one think to go through life as an idiot but to post on LS1Tech for all to see. CAMAROSSS is a real piece of work.

Xsta Z 28

iTrader: (2)

In regards to upgrading GMMG cars after point of purchase IMHO, has devalued the car . . . please don't hate me but that is my opinion. The car is only ORIGINAL if it was ordered that way - from the Dealer.

Sending the car back to GMMG does make for a some great power upgrades, but I question if it really increases it's value . . . granted one can keep all the original parts, and put it back.

Just my 2 cents, for what it is worth.

speedtoyz1

Oh yes they will bring back all the money you put in them if you go with gmmg to do the upgrades.Paper work is everything!!!!

camaro6662

Another GMMG owner here

Jordan You are to stop all work on the house for 1 year 5 months and 2 weeks
Then I will gladly take that 97 SS LT4 off your hands

That GMMG Clock How do I get one on the wall of My garage

camarosss

This is the part # I was given from the dealer (NOT THE CASTING#) for a ls1 and ls6 block: 12561166
Direct replacement for 2001-2004 LS1 and LS6 Corvette 5. 7L
Production 319-T5 aluminum block with iron sleeves
Production oiling system
6-bolt iron main bearing caps
9. 240 deck height
For use with LS1/LS6 cylinder heads only
3. 89" finished bore (99.0mm

These are the casting #s
MorTec, Inc. Chevy Smallblock V-8 Casting Numbers List:
12551358.........99-up...Gen.III, 4.8L or 5.3L, cast iron, truck
12551364...364...98-04...crossbolted cast iron Gen. III, 6.0L, truck
12559378...350...99-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12559846...350...98-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12560621...350...98-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12560626...350...99-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12560629...350...99......crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12561168...350...01-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12562174...350...98-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, "LS1", aluminum
12568952...364...05-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, 6.0L, aluminum, LS2
12566910...325...04-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, 5.3L, aluminum, SSR truck
12571048...325...04-up...crossbolted block, Gen.III, 5.3L
12573581...364...98-04...crossbolted cast iron, Gen.III, 6.0L, truck
12577184...364...98-04...crossbolted cast iron, Gen.III, 6.0L, truck
12577396.........02-up...Gen.III, 4.8L or 5.3L, cast iron, truck

12561168 was a casting #.
12559578 may be the old part # but this is the only # they use now for both blocks now. These #s are also in the new GM performance parts catalog.

camarosss

So you think by changing your car from a ph 1 to a ph 2........ its still original from day one!

camarosss

I think if the owners keep the original parts or especially the engines, this would not hurt the value. But I still would'nt change anything on these cars just for future values. The camaro white book is now totally wrong on what is original.

PontiacFan

iTrader: (104)

This is surprising.
You were told that it was the same part number for the LS1 block as the LS6 block?!? (Maybe you need to find a new dealer, ...)



"This is the part # I was given from the dealer (NOT THE CASTING#) for a ls1 and ls6 block: 12561166"

GMMG

iTrader: (2)

WOW . . .

I guess I missed a lot of entertaining comments over the past few days. First of all, I do not usually respond to emails or posts by anyone who wont sign their email or post with their name, that would be you CAMAROSSS. I will reply to any questions or comments, as silly or stupid as they may seem, because someone may not know what the answer really is, again, that would be you CAMAROSSS. I will admit, that when we pulled the first motor out of the 2002 ZL1's, and the casting number was the exact same casting number that I was putting back in the car, I was a little confused. So, I called the GM engineers we were working with and asked them how could a 2002 Camaro come with an LS6 motor. They said that the piston knock and oiling problems prompted GM to update the block. When GM updates parts, like an engine block or cylinder heads, they will almost always change the casting number, to signify a change or update has been made to the previous part number. So, if there are different casting numbers for an LS1 block, you can be sure there is something different about the blocks. The engineer also went on to say that they started filtering in the LS6 casting number blocks in Camaros and Firebirds in 2001 because of the continued piston knock problem. He said that about 20% of the 2001 f-bodies will have the LS6 casting number and about 70% of the 2002 f-bodies will have the LS6 casting number. We found 3 different casting numbers on the 69 motors we pulled out, but most of them were the LS6 casting numbers. To the extreme novice, again CAMAROSSS that would be you here, the motors seem to be the same, but if you had a production LS1 out of a 2002 CAMARO and one of the LS6 crate motors we bought from GM, you could probably find 15 things between the two of them that are different. The idea was brought up to me a long time ago, about how I could have saved a lot of money by just changing the heads, and cam and leaving the LS6 casting numbered motors in the cars, but I explained to them about the 15 differences and they agreed with me that it would have been obvious that we frauded people, if we did that. The first big give away that your block is a factory block is the VIN number like Ron said, and he would know since he helped build all of these cars. The second biggest way to see if your block is an LS1 or LS6 casting number is on the front of the block below the throttle body, there are obvious casting differences. I'm sure this topic has come up here so I wont go into it, but I would recommend that CAMAROSSS does look it up, and next time you speak as if you know the truth about something, just remember, someone will always know more about it than you. I heard someone say, God created us with two ears and one mouth, and we should listen twice as much as we speak, that's something you should think about. This issue of GM using the same casting number for both LS1 and LS6 engines, is going to continue to cause problems for many years. Remember, always do your homework and research it before you think you know what you're talking about, because you might find out that there is a simple answer for why you were wrong. I'll bet many people including CAMAROSSS didn't know that GM Parts actually made a seperate part number and LS6 motor combination for the ZL1 project. In 2002, all you could get was a complete LS6 warranty block with all the Corvette accessories. The price was over $11K, which would have made the project too expensive if we had to pay that much for those motors. One of the many things GM helped us with on the ZL1 project was the engine cost. They came up with a new GM Part number and created a LS6 motor package made for the Camaro, without the Corvette parts and LS6 intake, and saved us over $6K per motor. That LS6 crate motor and part number is pictured in the GM Performance Parts catalog.

Now that I have been nice CAMAROSSS and gave you a few LS1/LS6 engine facts, I do have something to say about your smart *** comments about me frauding people by lying to them about not putting a new GM LS6 crate motor in the ZL1 cars. First of all, you CLEARLY don't know anything about what we did here on those cars. If you have proof that we did build any of the 69 ZL1's with the stock LS1 motors, then bring it up, to this or any website, but you better have some proof. I'll tell you the same thing I told a guy a month ago who told a GMMG Phase 3 cars owner that he didn't have a GM C5R motor in his car. He told him it was a resleeved LS1 motor because it didn't have the blue plugs in his motor like the C5R motor in the 2007 GM Performance Parts catalog. He had this customer so upset that instead of calling me, he called a fellow GMMG car owner and said he was thinking of calling his attorney about this. His friend called me and said that I need to address this and find out what was going on. Well, like you CAMAROSSS, that so called intelligent LS motor expert, only knew a small bit about what he was talking about and made a complete *** of himself, when a simple explanation was given. GM now makes the C5R motor with the LS2/LS7 knock sensor provisions on the side of the block, something they were not doing in 2002 through 2006. I told that guy to tell his friend if he is so damn sure you don't have a C5R block, then put up $5000.00 and I'll do the same, and give me 1 minute to prove it and I keep your $5000.00 or you keep mine, if it really isn't a C5R block. Has anyone ever heard about someone taking candy from a baby, well, that would have been an easy $5K to me. Needless to say, he hasn't come out from under the rock he hid under after he realized how foolish he was, to jump to conclusions without checking his facts first. So CAMAROSSS, I could give you the proof you would need, but I'll give you the same option as the other guy, put up $5000.00 and we'll meet at a car show, and I'll also bring $5K, and then I'll give you all the proof you will need, and like taking candy from a baby, walk away in one minute with your hard earned money.

I appreciate everyone here trying to help out, and I can't be everywhere and on all the web sites, when questions come up about our cars, but CAMAROSSS, like these GMMG owners have done in the past, call me and ask questions about what a GMMG car had done to it before you go out there blabbing false accusations, that could get someone in trouble. And Ron, great answer on the VIN, that is definately the best way to prove what motor they have, and that's one sure way years from now to prove if a LS6 casting numbered motor your looking at was out of a F-body or Corvette. Also, believe it or not, but Billy Graham sold all but two of the 50 LS1 takeout motors we sold him, he still has all the stock springs, wheel, etc. but he sold all of those motors for over $3000 each.

One other issue that was mentioned in this post, was a $4000.00 credit. We offered to every ZL1 owner if they didn't want all of their takeoff stock parts, which included, you guessed it CAMAROSSS, the stock LS1 motor. About 14 people kept their parts, instead of taking the $4K credit.

And Lastly, for the record, the term base package vs. Phase 1, is this as far as I'm concerned . . . the dealerships sold the base packages we built for them, and we sold Phase 2 and Phase 3 packages to the customers. I think a magazine article called the base package a phase 1 and some people assume that there must be a phase 1 if there is a phase 2, but not true. In 2000, the base package was 375hp for the Berger SS's. In 2001 and 2002 the base package became 380hp, except for the Intimidator SS cars and that was because Dale asked if we could call his cars 381hp because of the 3 cars DEI owned at the time, and No, #3 was not for his Goodwrench NASCAR, RCR owned that car not Dale. It was for their #3 AC Delco Busch car, and Yes, #8 was for the Bud car and #1 was for the Pennzoil car. The 400hp base package was for the ZL1 cars and the Dick Harrell Edition cars, and these two base packages came standard with a GM crate LS6 motor. We couldn't rate the ZL1's any more than 400hp because we were told not to rate it as much or more than the Z06 Corvette.

Well, I hope this has helped explain to you all a few more facts about the GMMG cars. Enjoy them, drive them, and if you have a question about what we did, don't make a fool of yourself saying something you don't know anything about, email me or call me and I'll answer any question you have.

Take care and Happy Holidays . . .


MATT MURPHY

Owner - GMMG, Inc
770-592-6261 phone
gmmginc4@aol.com email

ZL1 #14

Bravo..........................Matt finally came to the rescue......