ZL1 vs. GT500 Insideline (Bittersweet)
06-13-2012, 11:53 AM
#82
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PEWTERSCREAMINMACH...never seen anyone put in better words then you did...great job..i think it's just that as GM guy i wanted the ZL1 to have a better 1/4 time...but you're 100% correct in you're take on it, i could never buy a shelby over a ZL1 that's for sure.
06-13-2012, 11:54 AM
#83
I'm pretty sure GM stated right from the start that the ZL1 was specifically being designed to perform as a badass on the road course. I don't know why people are saying they need to figure out what they want to do with the car. The very first article I ever read on it when they first officially announced it was all about how it was being designed to handle and perform well on the road course. If you disagree with their purpose for the car, that's one thing, but they never gave the impression of trying to make it anything other than a strong performer on the road course. Everyone - magazines, manufacturers, etc - does 1/4 mile testing on their vehicles, but it doesn't mean that was the purpose of the car.
I also doubt anyone at the time of the ZL1 designing expected Ford to drop a super-underrated, 600 rwhp bomb on the market. It clearly wasn't anticipated by GM (or anyone else, for that matter, including even most Ford enthusiasts considering all of the shock and over-joyed reactions going around). The car makes 100 more rwhp than the ZL1 and weighs less, but judging by the twisty numbers we're seeing so far, it looks like the ZL1 is holding up in the area it was designed for based on the design that was seen through to completion, which was long-finished before Ford put the '13 GT500 on the market and people realized the kind of power it actually makes.
The fact that Ford can do whatever the hell they want with the GT500 since it's their current top of the line performance vehicle is also a good point. Whether you agree with it or not (and I personally don't), GM clearly doesn't want to outgun the Corvette with any version of the Camaro, so until a major upgrade happens to the ZR1, I don't see them putting a 600rwhp Camaro on the market to compete with the GT500 in a straight line. Until the '13 GT500 hit the dyno and track publicly, they probably didn't think they had to to at least keep things in the same ball park.
I also doubt anyone at the time of the ZL1 designing expected Ford to drop a super-underrated, 600 rwhp bomb on the market. It clearly wasn't anticipated by GM (or anyone else, for that matter, including even most Ford enthusiasts considering all of the shock and over-joyed reactions going around). The car makes 100 more rwhp than the ZL1 and weighs less, but judging by the twisty numbers we're seeing so far, it looks like the ZL1 is holding up in the area it was designed for based on the design that was seen through to completion, which was long-finished before Ford put the '13 GT500 on the market and people realized the kind of power it actually makes.
The fact that Ford can do whatever the hell they want with the GT500 since it's their current top of the line performance vehicle is also a good point. Whether you agree with it or not (and I personally don't), GM clearly doesn't want to outgun the Corvette with any version of the Camaro, so until a major upgrade happens to the ZR1, I don't see them putting a 600rwhp Camaro on the market to compete with the GT500 in a straight line. Until the '13 GT500 hit the dyno and track publicly, they probably didn't think they had to to at least keep things in the same ball park.
I think the car is great and performs well for what it is, but I also think it could have been so much more than a cheap CTS-V.
06-13-2012, 12:19 PM
#85
I agree that GM stated right from the beginning that they built the car to be good on a road course, but if that's the case then why does it weigh the same as a full size, 4 door, 75k, luxury Cadillac? Imagine if GM had pulled their head out of their *** and put the same motor into a car weighing the same as a Boss Mustang (never mind if it had the LS9).
I think the car is great and performs well for what it is, but I also think it could have been so much more than a cheap CTS-V.
I think the car is great and performs well for what it is, but I also think it could have been so much more than a cheap CTS-V.
I like creature comforts as much as anyone, but I personally think it would have been badass if they made this specialty car something more along the lines of the 2000 Cobra R. Maybe not to that stripped down extreme, but if you're making a special edition car whose purpose is road course domination, not all of the luxury-oriented features are necessary.
At the same time, with those skid pad numbers, etc, the weight doesn't exactly seem to be holding it back in the handling department. Perhaps GM is of the opinion that the extra weight of all the higher tech, handling-oriented parts outweighs the benefits of weight savings (somewhat ironically).
4,100 pounds for a performance-based 2-door coupe just looks god-awful on paper, though. And it sucks to see these weights just keep rising and rising in such an extreme fashion that it almost makes you wonder if the manufacturer even cares, especially if you're of more of a drag racing mentality. Strip 500 pounds out of it and it still weighs over a hundred pounds more than a stock LS1 Fbody. 500 pounds is more than three of me. I could clone myself three times and ride around in an LS1 Fbody with all four of me in the car and we'd still weigh less than one of me driving a ZL1. That's just depressing.
Last edited by PewterScreaminMach; 06-13-2012 at 01:00 PM.
06-13-2012, 12:49 PM
#87
as far as tackling straight line performance. Evolution has had a gt500 for a few weeks.. Changed the pulley, air intake, full exhaust, and wheels/tires.....10.0 at 140 first track visit. 748whp. And i dont think the ZL supercar should have its hands full with the boss. While they did make it do what they wanted on the corners, its straight line performance is sub par at best. At least give it a tvs 2300 along side a forged rotating assembly. Im really in shock they are running cast pistons and powdered metal rods...O well. The only way to fix this error is to come out with a more boss-like camaro. As in: 3500lb curb weight, ls7 n/a powerplante, 6 spd 6060, with atleast a 3.73 gear. To me... thats a badass car. But ive always been N/A biast..
06-13-2012, 01:06 PM
#88
as far as tackling straight line performance. Evolution has had a gt500 for a few weeks.. Changed the pulley, air intake, full exhaust, and wheels/tires.....10.0 at 140 first track visit. 748whp. And i dont think the ZL supercar should have its hands full with the boss. While they did make it do what they wanted on the corners, its straight line performance is sub par at best. At least give it a tvs 2300 along side a forged rotating assembly. Im really in shock they are running cast pistons and powdered metal rods...O well. The only way to fix this error is to come out with a more boss-like camaro. As in: 3500lb curb weight, ls7 n/a powerplante, 6 spd 6060, with atleast a 3.73 gear. To me... thats a badass car. But ive always been N/A biast..
They didn't exactly slap the ZL1 together with leftover shop parts and hope it would do OK at its intended purpose. It also clearly wasn't designed to compete with a 600 rwhp car in a straight line, particularly considering there was no 600 rwhp factory Mustang in sight when they designed the thing. Hindsight is 20/20, but even the most die-hard Ford fans didn't expect that kind of power from this thing (though I'm sure many hoped for it someday). Hell, the rated power was more than most expected, and it's still greatly under-rated for even those numbers. It has like a 9% drivetrain loss according to its already shocking "rated" numbers...
06-13-2012, 01:53 PM
#89
I just feel the zl1 should have a definitive win over a stock boss, but it doesnt. In retrospect, a GT with a few bolt ons will give a stock ZL1 a run. I just feel its lacking. Too heavy
06-13-2012, 02:03 PM
#90
Owning a '04 STi for a few years made me look at other aspects of racing other than just a straight line. I love the fact that the ZL1 handles and doesn't do excessively bad in a straight line(like the STi/Evo)especially at its weight ! Just like the Evo/STi, the Evo was the less powerful car but handled awesomely and with a few mods(way cheaper to mod than a STI) was smoking my STi. I hope this is the case. I'd like to think that the camaro was built this same way though I do wish the weight would come down a good 500lbs.
I also like to think that the ZL1 is just a base just so GM can see where they stand at against the competion and with the results they make the appropriate changes/mods. I mean 4400lbs and it handles the way that it does ?
I also like to think that the ZL1 is just a base just so GM can see where they stand at against the competion and with the results they make the appropriate changes/mods. I mean 4400lbs and it handles the way that it does ?
06-13-2012, 02:28 PM
#93
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At the end of the day the question still remains... which would you take... the str8 line guys will go with the Shelby and the track guys will go with the ZL... the creative guys will get the ZL and make the mods to run down a Shelby, while the Shelby guys will be making mods to beat Supra's and ZR1's... right or wrong... I know when i built my STi it was to smack that smile off most V8 owners faces...lol. Some guy somewhere has been waiting on one of these two platforms to create a monster out of... I'll b sitting at the track waiting and watching...
06-13-2012, 02:29 PM
#94
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IMO it is still disappointing due to the Uglyness and heavy weight.
06-13-2012, 02:35 PM
#95
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at the .35 second mark looking under the hood looks like a TVS2300 not the 1900 from the ZL1... i could be mistaken but looks like the 2300 
Here's one for the drag strip ! No #'s though, Hmmm !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2XBG...feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2XBG...feature=relmfu
06-13-2012, 02:41 PM
#97
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I agree that GM stated right from the beginning that they built the car to be good on a road course, but if that's the case then why does it weigh the same as a full size, 4 door, 75k, luxury Cadillac? Imagine if GM had pulled their head out of their *** and put the same motor into a car weighing the same as a Boss Mustang (never mind if it had the LS9).
I think the car is great and performs well for what it is, but I also think it could have been so much more than a cheap CTS-V.
I think the car is great and performs well for what it is, but I also think it could have been so much more than a cheap CTS-V.
06-13-2012, 03:09 PM
#98
Another thing I was thinking about is the hot topic of that video with the Boss beating the ZL1. I'd be curious to see the comments if the Boss beat a 2012 GT500 the same way.
06-13-2012, 03:58 PM
#99
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There will be some of this, but mostly the GM guys will choose the ZL1 and the Ford guys will choose the GT500. Way's it's been for a long time and nothing will change soon. At the end of the day I would choose based on looks because both cars are very easy to mod up (even if one will take a few more mods to match the performance of the other).
Another thing I was thinking about is the hot topic of that video with the Boss beating the ZL1. I'd be curious to see the comments if the Boss beat a 2012 GT500 the same way.
Another thing I was thinking about is the hot topic of that video with the Boss beating the ZL1. I'd be curious to see the comments if the Boss beat a 2012 GT500 the same way.
06-13-2012, 04:39 PM
#100
Good point, BUT then the guy in the ZL1 can simply pulley up with a couple bolt-ons and return the favor x2! That's the good thing about having blowers from the factory. Remember the 03/04 Cobra?
Heck, IMO that is quite the accomplishment. GM managed to build a heavy car that could still out-handle its lighter competition along with more expensive automobiles like the BMW M3. They (GM) obviously knew what they were doing.
Heck, IMO that is quite the accomplishment. GM managed to build a heavy car that could still out-handle its lighter competition along with more expensive automobiles like the BMW M3. They (GM) obviously knew what they were doing.
I must've missed something cause the last I heard was that the ZL1 ate the Boss up at Leguna Seca !