Semi-annual explanation...
04-07-2010, 10:10 PM
#41
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With all that's been stated, something on a positive note:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...day-video.html
mitch and a few others actually have some decent you tube vids as well.
For those who've read the thread, they can see what goes on with a sponsors parts, as well as some of the constructive criticism and debates. I think if Sam can make more threads like the one above, then it could give his business that competitive edge he's going to need.
There's a logical wall here on this website that divides critical thinking from the simplified passive regurgitation of statements and the above linked thread can hopefully break a bit more through that wall.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...day-video.html
mitch and a few others actually have some decent you tube vids as well.
For those who've read the thread, they can see what goes on with a sponsors parts, as well as some of the constructive criticism and debates. I think if Sam can make more threads like the one above, then it could give his business that competitive edge he's going to need.
There's a logical wall here on this website that divides critical thinking from the simplified passive regurgitation of statements and the above linked thread can hopefully break a bit more through that wall.
04-08-2010, 07:34 AM
#42
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I'm sure BMR, UMI and tons of other companies are still performing R&D to upgrade their current components, ie, your example of the Roto-Joint, a "new" technology applied across their entire product line, not just for the 4th Gen F-Body.
I do not believe that they are not putting as much R&D into the 4th Gen F-Body components as say, the 5th Gen F-Body, Challenger/Charger or Mustang.
04-08-2010, 09:32 AM
#43
Let me say that my experience with the sponsors on this site has been great - advice, returns etc. I truly believe Sam has developed a winning combo for our cars and I'm upgrading my previous purchases (aftermarket) to his stuff. His knowledge of the F body through racing and parts development benefits ME when I call him and he can explain what benefits (if any!) I would experience from parts he sells! He starts the conversation with what issue/perceived weakness/shortcoming in the chassis I am trying to correct/mitigate. Never have I been pressured. Sam called me on a Sunday (!) (Canada) telling me he found a cheaper company to ship up here! That level of service is only available from a "smaller" company, IMHO! Sam is a conscientious person who is entitled to defend his business if he feels he needs to. I don't think he needs to but he feels that misinformation is costing him business and in a way, casting doubt on his abilities, R&D, racing, quality etc. Yeah, I would take that personally to, if I had built up a business like his! I feel comfortable calling sam for advice/parts. If some others don't, there are alternative sponsors and even more vendors outside this forum. I don't flame vendors I don't like/use, I just move on, read a different post or take what is of value for me and disregard the rest. There would be less bitching/flaming going on if more people do this. The "ananomininty" of the internet allows people to make verbal attacks they would not face to face.
04-08-2010, 05:07 PM
#44
It seems as if some are missing the point, or at least missing the point that I'm trying to make.
Again, there is no need to reiterate the same conclusion: Sam knows his ****. Anyone that's been in this suspension section of this forum knows about Sam Strano. We are all aware of his talent and knowledge. ASIDE from this, what I have a problem with is his reasoning for creating threads like these.
If you have a customer that isn't being "compliant" in the way you would like, get over it. Don't get so worked up that you get a nose bleed.
Again, there is no need to reiterate the same conclusion: Sam knows his ****. Anyone that's been in this suspension section of this forum knows about Sam Strano. We are all aware of his talent and knowledge. ASIDE from this, what I have a problem with is his reasoning for creating threads like these.
If you have a customer that isn't being "compliant" in the way you would like, get over it. Don't get so worked up that you get a nose bleed.
04-08-2010, 05:29 PM
#45
Sam and I go WAY back ... to LS1.com days. And there are two basic things I've learned over the last 10+ years ...
Folks who are NOT suspension savy often mistake "different" for "better".
and
Having a suspension set-up that works is as unique as a finger print.
Had someone told me 5 years ago that I could alter my lap times by changing tire pressure ... on 1 tire ... I would have laughed at them.
And that's the reason why I DON'T suggest springs, shocks or sways. It's just too unique of a change to make a global recommendation and proclaim, "this'll work perfect."
Last edited by mitchntx; 04-08-2010 at 05:38 PM.
04-08-2010, 06:20 PM
#46
I agree that folks mistake different for better. Which is exactly the reason I get myself in trouble--a lot. Because I need to know things about what the person expects to do a good setup for them.
And I agree that setups are individual, which is why I'm a proponent of adjustable shocks, as an example. There is no exactly right setting for every single person. How it came to be that some of you think I do exactly the same thing for everyone is beyond me. I do a lot of similar setups, because a great baseline is a great baseline. If someone is looking for things that I am--then of course there is a starting point. I don't recommend springs to everyone, or bars, or even shocks. Depends on what they tell me they want from the car, AND how they think the car works to begin with. Hell, just last week a guy told me he wanted to make his car "handle better", then followed that with, but I like how it drives now. He couldn't identify anything he'd like to change or see different. I told him to leave it alone.....
And honestly if Mitch were to think about it. Setups aren't as unique as a fingerprint in the sense that they are drastically different. In fact I think we can all agree that a good handling car needs decent shock damping, a bigger front swaybar than rear, and springs that are roughly 2.5-4 times stiffer in front than in the rear. I'm sure Mitch's car, while being setup differently than mine, falls under those criteria for the most part. There are basics that many setups follow--they need not be exactly the same to be considered similar in thought if not exact execution.
You can look at that a million ways with almost anything in which you have choice. There are degrees of difference, there are reasons Bob might opt for part A over part B where Joe picks B instead of A.
Yes, I am "guilty" of finding something that works well for me. Given that I am a pretty accomplished and not clueless driver, and have done testing for major companies, and been called by engineers at some major automotive companies for my opinion, it helps when working on setups. If someone is hell-bent on driving in to a corner way too fast, and then bitches the car understeers, the first thing I'll tell them is to slow down because they are overdriving. I won't change the car setup. If I do it might work better in that corner, but it will be looser at higher speeds. Everything has a trade-off. Setting up and testing stuff is a matter of weighing the pro's vs. the con's.
The number of folks who have my parts who are hugely happy outweighs the few who seem to be unhappy with me--most of which aren't actually customers fwiw. I can live with that. I'd love to please everyone, but that's not realistic. And I'm kind of big on realistic.
I'm not trying to pick here, but Mitch and I have gone rounds about having adjustable shocks (as example) before. He thinks they are a waste and of no use. I believe in them big time. If no setup is right for everyone, that has to include damping control too--and a huge number of other things as well. So this is where I get a bit confused. I don't buy the notion that there is one best way to do anything at all... and clearly Mitch doesn't either. Until it comes to something like shock damping. That's where I become confused. Should people have choice, or not?
And I give them choices. Hell, I sell move variety of brands and parts in terms of suspension than any other vendor here. Just because I have particular favorites doesn't mean I don't offer choice.
And I agree that setups are individual, which is why I'm a proponent of adjustable shocks, as an example. There is no exactly right setting for every single person. How it came to be that some of you think I do exactly the same thing for everyone is beyond me. I do a lot of similar setups, because a great baseline is a great baseline. If someone is looking for things that I am--then of course there is a starting point. I don't recommend springs to everyone, or bars, or even shocks. Depends on what they tell me they want from the car, AND how they think the car works to begin with. Hell, just last week a guy told me he wanted to make his car "handle better", then followed that with, but I like how it drives now. He couldn't identify anything he'd like to change or see different. I told him to leave it alone.....
And honestly if Mitch were to think about it. Setups aren't as unique as a fingerprint in the sense that they are drastically different. In fact I think we can all agree that a good handling car needs decent shock damping, a bigger front swaybar than rear, and springs that are roughly 2.5-4 times stiffer in front than in the rear. I'm sure Mitch's car, while being setup differently than mine, falls under those criteria for the most part. There are basics that many setups follow--they need not be exactly the same to be considered similar in thought if not exact execution.
You can look at that a million ways with almost anything in which you have choice. There are degrees of difference, there are reasons Bob might opt for part A over part B where Joe picks B instead of A.
Yes, I am "guilty" of finding something that works well for me. Given that I am a pretty accomplished and not clueless driver, and have done testing for major companies, and been called by engineers at some major automotive companies for my opinion, it helps when working on setups. If someone is hell-bent on driving in to a corner way too fast, and then bitches the car understeers, the first thing I'll tell them is to slow down because they are overdriving. I won't change the car setup. If I do it might work better in that corner, but it will be looser at higher speeds. Everything has a trade-off. Setting up and testing stuff is a matter of weighing the pro's vs. the con's.
The number of folks who have my parts who are hugely happy outweighs the few who seem to be unhappy with me--most of which aren't actually customers fwiw. I can live with that. I'd love to please everyone, but that's not realistic. And I'm kind of big on realistic.
I'm not trying to pick here, but Mitch and I have gone rounds about having adjustable shocks (as example) before. He thinks they are a waste and of no use. I believe in them big time. If no setup is right for everyone, that has to include damping control too--and a huge number of other things as well. So this is where I get a bit confused. I don't buy the notion that there is one best way to do anything at all... and clearly Mitch doesn't either. Until it comes to something like shock damping. That's where I become confused. Should people have choice, or not?
And I give them choices. Hell, I sell move variety of brands and parts in terms of suspension than any other vendor here. Just because I have particular favorites doesn't mean I don't offer choice.
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Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
04-08-2010, 07:55 PM
#48
Again ...
They are NOT a waste and have great use ... just overkill for a daily driver. No one will pull over and adjust their shock based upon driving conditions. And at legal, hiway speeds, the chances of killing a shock are miniscual on this platform.
And I venture a guess that 90% of your customers don't know what to do to the shocks to fix a specific condition.
And heaven forbid they post up in this Tech section to try and learn. The only response will be ... call Sam.
Last edited by mitchntx; 04-08-2010 at 08:01 PM.
04-09-2010, 11:57 AM
#49
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For any novices to people who've had a few years exp racing... what's wrong with that? I think that's a great idea. To start out at least. Once you get more experienced and learn about what kind of feel you like, I agree.. time to put your own spin on things. Probably 90% or more of the people posting in here probably fall into that category.
04-09-2010, 12:36 PM
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Now this is where you and I get cross-ways ... you have this imprinted in your head and it's just not true.
Again ...
They are NOT a waste and have great use ... just overkill for a daily driver. No one will pull over and adjust their shock based upon driving conditions. And at legal, hiway speeds, the chances of killing a shock are miniscual on this platform.
And I venture a guess that 90% of your customers don't know what to do to the shocks to fix a specific condition.
And heaven forbid they post up in this Tech section to try and learn. The only response will be ... call Sam.
Again ...
They are NOT a waste and have great use ... just overkill for a daily driver. No one will pull over and adjust their shock based upon driving conditions. And at legal, hiway speeds, the chances of killing a shock are miniscual on this platform.
And I venture a guess that 90% of your customers don't know what to do to the shocks to fix a specific condition.
And heaven forbid they post up in this Tech section to try and learn. The only response will be ... call Sam.
its not so that you can constantly "pull over and adjust their shock".
its so you can install them, play with making adjustments, feeling the difference between firmer or softer, figuring out what settings feel best, and leaving it there.
in my mind that is much better then installing a shock and living with whatever it is preset to, without ever knowing how it might do if it were a little firmer or a little softer (or maybe even a lot firmer or softer).
would you buy a belt for your pants with only one hole? even though you may settle on the hole you like best and never change, you had to initially try the others to know what fit you best.
and you may get fatter or skinnyer in the future- at least you can adjust your belt.
if you change your suspension setup adjustable shocks can adjust with you.
04-09-2010, 01:35 PM
#51
For any novices to people who've had a few years exp racing... what's wrong with that? I think that's a great idea. To start out at least. Once you get more experienced and learn about what kind of feel you like, I agree.. time to put your own spin on things. Probably 90% or more of the people posting in here probably fall into that category.
you are missing the point entirely about adjustable shocks.
its not so that you can constantly "pull over and adjust their shock".
its so you can install them, play with making adjustments, feeling the difference between firmer or softer, figuring out what settings feel best, and leaving it there.
in my mind that is much better then installing a shock and living with whatever it is preset to, without ever knowing how it might do if it were a little firmer or a little softer (or maybe even a lot firmer or softer).
would you buy a belt for your pants with only one hole? even though you may settle on the hole you like best and never change, you had to initially try the others to know what fit you best.
and you may get fatter or skinnyer in the future- at least you can adjust your belt.
if you change your suspension setup adjustable shocks can adjust with you.
its not so that you can constantly "pull over and adjust their shock".
its so you can install them, play with making adjustments, feeling the difference between firmer or softer, figuring out what settings feel best, and leaving it there.
in my mind that is much better then installing a shock and living with whatever it is preset to, without ever knowing how it might do if it were a little firmer or a little softer (or maybe even a lot firmer or softer).
would you buy a belt for your pants with only one hole? even though you may settle on the hole you like best and never change, you had to initially try the others to know what fit you best.
and you may get fatter or skinnyer in the future- at least you can adjust your belt.
if you change your suspension setup adjustable shocks can adjust with you.
It's kind of like buying a dry sump oiling system for a Camaro commuter car. It will ensure positive flow of oil to the motor ... but is it over kill?
At legal speed limits on public roads, Bilstein HDs will give adequate service and life to a stock weighted car on most any commercially available spring and at 1/3 the cost of Konis. Konis are a great shock. I have them on the rear of my race car. But I'd never spend $1000+ on a set of shocks for a street car.
04-09-2010, 01:55 PM
#52
There are PLENTY of people here who have adjustable shocks on their daily drivers and find them to be beneficial. It's fine if you are not one of them Mitch, but just because you disagree, doesn't mean it's not true for them.
Look at how many folks have Koni's and love them, and have played with adjustments to find what they like best. Are adjustables all good? No, QA1's are adjustable and just have sucky baseline settings and will never work as well as non-adjustable Bilstein. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I don't have it in my head you hate adjustables. I have it in my head you don't think they are useful to most people (and last I knew even you had non-adjustables on your race car....). I completely disagree, as I think will 99% of folks who have Koni shocks and who've I've helped set them up. I'm sure there are those that have no idea how to work with them, got completely lost and ended up hating them. That can happen with a great camshaft too, if you don't have any idea how to degree it properly or match it with a set of heads.
Look at how many folks have Koni's and love them, and have played with adjustments to find what they like best. Are adjustables all good? No, QA1's are adjustable and just have sucky baseline settings and will never work as well as non-adjustable Bilstein. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I don't have it in my head you hate adjustables. I have it in my head you don't think they are useful to most people (and last I knew even you had non-adjustables on your race car....). I completely disagree, as I think will 99% of folks who have Koni shocks and who've I've helped set them up. I'm sure there are those that have no idea how to work with them, got completely lost and ended up hating them. That can happen with a great camshaft too, if you don't have any idea how to degree it properly or match it with a set of heads.
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
04-09-2010, 01:59 PM
#53
I understand ... I really do. But a person spends $1000 premium for that luxury. And you, and me, and Bryan ... we can probably feel the difference. But for a person who needs replacement shocks for his daily driver, its overkill.
It's kind of like buying a dry sump oiling system for a Camaro commuter car. It will ensure positive flow of oil to the motor ... but is it over kill?
At legal speed limits on public roads, Bilstein HDs will give adequate service and life to a stock weighted car on most any commercially available spring and at 1/3 the cost of Konis. Konis are a great shock. I have them on the rear of my race car. But I'd never spend $1000+ on a set of shocks for a street car.
It's kind of like buying a dry sump oiling system for a Camaro commuter car. It will ensure positive flow of oil to the motor ... but is it over kill?
At legal speed limits on public roads, Bilstein HDs will give adequate service and life to a stock weighted car on most any commercially available spring and at 1/3 the cost of Konis. Konis are a great shock. I have them on the rear of my race car. But I'd never spend $1000+ on a set of shocks for a street car.
.... In your opinion. That's all.
I do not find Bilstein's adequate for my street car and too my preference even with stock springs. Better than stock? Hell yes, but I have Koni's on my car because I prefer them. And for the record----I don't make a dime more on a Koni sale than I do a Bilstein sale. So if you think that's why I like Koni's so much, you are wrong. If fact I make slightly less on Koni's as I loose a bigger percentage of the total sale to credit card processing fees.....
I have LOTS of folks who've moved from Bilstein to Koni and are happy they did. Why do you have such a problem with that if they are happy, find the car better, and if you truly believe that folks might like different things? That's what I don't get............
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
04-09-2010, 02:03 PM
#54
I guess I should just be the internet vendor who nobody ever sees... I think most folks prefer the service I offer. If they don't, they don't need to call me and they can just order parts blindly off the web it they like.
I don't want to me an order taker. I like helping folks, or trying.... until this crap happens and I get bashed for, apparently, caring too much and having the unmitigated nerve to try and improve a setup for someone---or even leaving it alone if they really like what they have.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
04-09-2010, 02:44 PM
#55
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What I don't get is Sam fielding a 100 phone calls versus posting a single thread on teh net so 100 people can LEARN!
I understand ... I really do. But a person spends $1000 premium for that luxury. And you, and me, and Bryan ... we can probably feel the difference. But for a person who needs replacement shocks for his daily driver, its overkill.
It's kind of like buying a dry sump oiling system for a Camaro commuter car. It will ensure positive flow of oil to the motor ... but is it over kill?
At legal speed limits on public roads, Bilstein HDs will give adequate service and life to a stock weighted car on most any commercially available spring and at 1/3 the cost of Konis. Konis are a great shock. I have them on the rear of my race car. But I'd never spend $1000+ on a set of shocks for a street car.
I understand ... I really do. But a person spends $1000 premium for that luxury. And you, and me, and Bryan ... we can probably feel the difference. But for a person who needs replacement shocks for his daily driver, its overkill.
It's kind of like buying a dry sump oiling system for a Camaro commuter car. It will ensure positive flow of oil to the motor ... but is it over kill?
At legal speed limits on public roads, Bilstein HDs will give adequate service and life to a stock weighted car on most any commercially available spring and at 1/3 the cost of Konis. Konis are a great shock. I have them on the rear of my race car. But I'd never spend $1000+ on a set of shocks for a street car.
04-09-2010, 03:26 PM
#57
I don't want to me an order taker. I like helping folks, or trying.... until this crap happens and I get bashed for, apparently, caring too much and having the unmitigated nerve to try and improve a setup for someone---or even leaving it alone if they really like what they have.
04-09-2010, 04:03 PM
#58
No its LS1SELL ... or LS1VENDOR
Sorry, I disagree that the predominant user here needs and can fully utililze the performance that a $1400 set of shocks provides vs what a $400 set does.
If you are competing, yes. If you are driving to work and back, sorry ... can't see a $1000 luxury. People are "talked" into it are sold a bill of goods IMHO.
It took 3 seperate posts for Sam to basically say he's right and I'm wrong.
Why don't you just call me and explain instead of posting this data on the internet?
Sorry, I disagree that the predominant user here needs and can fully utililze the performance that a $1400 set of shocks provides vs what a $400 set does.
If you are competing, yes. If you are driving to work and back, sorry ... can't see a $1000 luxury. People are "talked" into it are sold a bill of goods IMHO.
It took 3 seperate posts for Sam to basically say he's right and I'm wrong.
Why don't you just call me and explain instead of posting this data on the internet?
04-09-2010, 04:24 PM
#59
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Can we not have a mature discussion for crying out loud that doesn't contain instigating and everyone getting defensive???
But anyways... That's what a lot of people do though. Hook up their car with stuff they don't need. Who needs a 9 inch rear end with a 500 hp supercharged setup or heads/cam setup for driving on the street only? Lots of people have it though. I think the reality set in for me when I began racing and realized the things I was adding to my car wasn't helping. Then I began to toss out mod goals that I wouldn't need.
I agree on the ls1sell point, this site is so big now that it's a money making business. As a result, some threads do get overwhelmed with sponsor advertisements that pose as advice. It is what it is though.. it's up to the users to master the art of distinguishing the difference between information and marketing.
But anyways... That's what a lot of people do though. Hook up their car with stuff they don't need. Who needs a 9 inch rear end with a 500 hp supercharged setup or heads/cam setup for driving on the street only? Lots of people have it though. I think the reality set in for me when I began racing and realized the things I was adding to my car wasn't helping. Then I began to toss out mod goals that I wouldn't need.
I agree on the ls1sell point, this site is so big now that it's a money making business. As a result, some threads do get overwhelmed with sponsor advertisements that pose as advice. It is what it is though.. it's up to the users to master the art of distinguishing the difference between information and marketing.
04-09-2010, 04:47 PM
#60
Apparently not, Bryan. I thought things were going to be different this time. Then the same old things jumped out.
And you are correct ... no one NEEDS a V8. Yugos would be perfectly adequate for a vehicle's intended purpose.
And like I've said for years, if you are competing at ANY level, justifying expenditures under the hood or for the chassis is easy.
People max out their cards and file bankruptcy all the time.
And you are correct ... no one NEEDS a V8. Yugos would be perfectly adequate for a vehicle's intended purpose.
And like I've said for years, if you are competing at ANY level, justifying expenditures under the hood or for the chassis is easy.
People max out their cards and file bankruptcy all the time.