BerryWS6

iTrader: (9)

I have a WS6 with Hotchkis springs, BMR LCA,PHB,STB Sphon Ajust TA, and I am needing new shocks.
I am looking for non-ajustable ones, that are going to be great for street, and the occasional Auto-X and drag (not alot) but I want it to work great with what I have and inhance it further.
I have looked at the Bilstiens but which ones? the Regular ones, the HD's or the SLP specific that are made for 1" droped cars and revavled.
Then what about Edelbrock? are they any good.
The prices of these are around $350-$400 thats the price range I am trying to stay at.

Thanks
Mike

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

HD's are not intended for lowering springs, though many uninformed folks do it. And HD's are the "regular" ones.... SLP Bilstein's are valved for SLP springs that aren't as low or as firm as you Hotchkis springs.

Edelbrock's are overpriced and use a rinky-dink piston design. Any Bilstein is a better choice IMHO.

All that said, I'll step up here and say you need Revalved Bilstein's. I do them, and we start with HD's, and add rebound damping to them to control the actual springs you have. Not a ball-park idea, not a one valving is good enough. You get shocks valved to your needs. That includeds not only the springs, but the way the car is driven too as drag racing has a very different valving than a car who's first goal is handle. Revalves are $500 for the set.

I understand you'd like to stay @ $350-400. But shocks are the biggest single suspension part you can add. You've spent a lot of money on your springs, LCA's, PHB, STB, and TA. Don't skimp here because the shocks are much more critical to the performance and stability of the car than any of the things you added so far. Think about what's involved in a shock vs. a spring. Machined parts. Oil, seals, valving R&D, bushings, mounting hardware, etc. Now, what's involved in springs or say your TA? Some wire or metal, a little research and some paint or powdercoat. The difference in the type of parts you are looking at is huge.

Shocks are spring dampers. That means they have to be valved to damp the springs you are teaming them up with. HD's and SLP's are not.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I directly relate the shocks to confidence. The more money you spend on shocks, the more confidence you will have while driving.

I have the Koni SA's which are about $800. Most people just don't understand spending that much on shocks. I know there's no one in my family that understands it, but I still think it's worth it. Keeping the tires on the ground is a big safety thing as well.

I would recommend saving up some more money to get good shocks than setting a too low budget.

Sam knows what he's talking about when it comes to shocks.

BTW, he means the fronts are revalved to match the springs, while the rears are not revalved as they usually are already close to what they need to be. The Koni SA rears cost about the same as the revalved rears so they would be the better choice in back.

jasonsny

I wouldn't be so quick to bash the Edelbrock and I certainly wouldn't call them rinky-dink. This is probably the best all around shock I have ever driven on a car. The Edelbrock front shocks are adjustable and include an Eibach spring out-of-the-box. The real benefit to the shock is the Inertia Active System, which senses the difference between body/chassis movement and wheel movement.

Simply put, body or chassis movement is the feel of the body moving on the chassis. This type of movement can cause a body roll effect, which makes the chassis feel unstable. Wheel movement is the wheel moving indepedent of the chassis, such as an abruppt drop into a pothole---the kind that breaks your jaw in an F-car.

The main feature of the Edelbrock shock, the IAS valve, stays closed under normal surface conditions creating a firm, sports-car like ride and performance handling. Meanwhile if wheel movement occurs, such as a bottoming out in a pot-hole, the IAS valve reacts in milliseconds, releasing pressure and instantly softening the circuit. I'm telling you I have them on a 1994 Z and a 1998 Z and they work well as a package. Optional Eibach springs are avaialble for the rear through Edelbrock.

Click Here for More Info

Judd

iTrader: (1)

I will vote for a set of adjustable Konis. They are big money to buy but right up there with the best {if not the best} shocks in handling and you have the option of adjustment if you ever change your springs. That adjustment will only help marginally at the 1/4 mile track though, Koni's full soft is still alot firmer than a set of 90/10s. Money spent on shocks is the best money you can spend when it comes to handling {maybe excepting swaybars}.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I've had regular old Bilstein HDs on my street car since '99 and put them on my race car earlier this year and have no cmplaints about the way they perform. They didn't blow up, disintegrate or cause world-wide famine ...

Are they PERFECT? No ... on a scale of 1 to 10, where stock shocks are a 1 and the magic revalves are a 10, the regular HDs are an 8.

And FWIW ... I just ordered a set of revalved Bilsteins from Jason at Unbalanced Engineering. He has a way of dealing with people so that they don't feel so stupid. He actually explained the reasons why revalved shocks would help me gain that extra 1/10 of a second on track instead making it seem like "revalving" is some sort of national secret and a threat to homeland security.

Nice guy ... I highly recommend him. He ships when he promises and tries to help out the uninformed ...

BerryWS6

iTrader: (9)

I kept looking online last night and came across some called (Tokico) are they a good shock? I should say that when I said "drag" before this means maybe once a year, the Auto-Xing is more like 4-5 times a year so I want it more for that. I just dont have the money to do the Koni's, I wish, thats just out of my ball park.
What is the best Non-ajustable shock? Does Koni have those?

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Hey jasonsny, where you been hiding? I've looked for the last year or 2 for someone who has the Edelbrocks on an F-body.
Can you go here and give your impressions on them?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/375062-edelbrock-shocks.html
Thanks.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Tokico is more an import shock. I don't think they make them for the f-body.
Koni doesn't have a non-adjustable shock for the f-body. They have some for other cars, though.
You might want to reconsider your budget. I had to save up for a year to get my shocks. I wanted them badly so it was hard to wait just staring at the stock 4x4 look for all that time. It was worth it though.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Well, I'm not surprised. At least you finally did something to make the car better instead of arguing that it was just fine with HD's.

For the record, you never asked me on the phone why revalves would have benefitted you. And I'm not going to give out valving specs on the internet for all to see. However, I do tell the customer or potential customer exactly what I'm changing and why. You just never asked, that's not my problem.

I never made you feel stupid, or meant to. But if you felt that way maybe it's because you didn't understand what I was getting at, and again.... didn't ask. I don't think many of my customers think I make them feel stupid, so maybe it's not actually me.

Regardless I'm glad you finally got off the bench and did *SOMETHING* in terms of shocks. I do find it interesting though that you say that HD's are 8 and "revalves are 10's. Yet you still have tried the revalves you are getting, so how can you even put a number on it? And let's not forget that not all shocks are valved the same. I will normally change the rebound in the front, and often the curve of the rebound to suit what we want the car to do. I also run a different rear shock as well.

Judd

iTrader: (1)

I've heard that the Tokikos are not valved correctly for a F-Body but saying that, Ive never used them. Look for a used set of Konis or SLP Bilsteins. I had the SLP Bilsteins with a set of LT1 Eibach Pros and they were pretty good. At the very least, get a set of regular HDs.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

A velocity sensitive shock is nothing special, all shocks are naturally by simply moving the piston through the oil at different speeds. However, there are improvement that can be made, like having a piston that "blows-off" which allows you to run the shock firmer most of time but lessen the increase in damping over a certain type of sharp bumps. I give Edelbrock props for realizing that they need to do something. Unfortunately the way it was gone is not very good. The valve is a slide mechanism that is controlled by spring pressure. When the forces are sufficient to move the spring, the valve will move. This is not only more complicated than it needs to be (Bilstein for example uses spring type washers that flex at different forces and open the hole), but also more prone to failure IMHO. The IAS valve is there to the same job the valve on a Monroe Reflex does, or the Digressive piston on a Bilstein does, or the foot and bleed valves do on a Koni.

The difference is not only in how the bypasses work, but in this case also in the actual damping of the shock as you drive down the road. This is why I recommend an adjustable damper any time I can because the customer is not stuck with anything. If he/she doesn't like it or wants to change or experiment, they can. If they change spring rates at a later time you don't need a new set of shocks to account for the change. And all the while there is still a digressive, blow-off nature to the damper at high piston speeds.

I have no doubt they might be the best shock you've driven. But I have wonder what you've driven in comparison. I'm guessing you work for Edelbrock by you signature and the fact you are sponsor. That's cool, I sell Edelbrock products through my main warehouse, Keystone Automotive, and I use Russell Brake lines (who Edelbrock owns), and often Edelbrock STB's for certain cars. But I'm not a fan of the shocks.

As a vendor who carries a number of brands (KYB, Tokico, Koni, Edelbrock, Bilstein, SLP Bilstein, Monroe, Gabriel) I don't really care what shock a customer buys from me as long as it's proper for their application. I carry all those lines because there are instances when someone might want something specific that we can get from one of those dampers and the customer knows I'm selling what's needed vs. what I have and can sell.

I have Koni's on my car FWIW.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

For the record, I never asked for specs, just theory. I never asked you to give out secrets you've gleened, just give me the reasons why revalves work. Jason would or could answer that.

So Sammy, when you said

My bad ... to which "uninformed" person were you referring to if it wasn't me?
You have certainly considered much less of a reference to you :insulting". Why the double standard?



In this thread

http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?a...&hl=revalve&s=

I almost PLEADED to be "informed" and you simply refused. But I see now, you chose to share that theory. Is it because you lost a sale?

And in this thread,

https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/387325-sam-strano-guy.html

I publically reached out an olive branch to try and bridge our stormy relationship ... without acknowledgement I might add. Seems not too long ago, you called me out for not publically apologizing for contaminating your thread(s). tit for tat, my brother.

I think it's personal, Sam.

Let this be a lesson, kiddies. Don't disagree with the "teacher".

Pull out your fife, Sam and lead them all to the promised land.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Oh

And I don't think I argued that the HDs were "just fine" ... rather, they did a great job. Maybe I should have fleshed that out a tad and added "for the cost".

Would that have made a difference?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

It's not personal, but you tend to open your mouth before really considering things. I have explained why HD's are not up the task many many, MANY times on the forums. I guess you just missed the hundreds of posts. I don't know how I can more plainly tell you or anyone that shocks are spring dampers and when you up the spring rate you need to also up the damping rate. What is so difficult about that?????? Does that make you feel stupid? I further tell folks all the time that rebound damping not only gives feel the car, but also makes it respond more quickly to inputs because it slows body roll rate way down. Again, mentioned MANY, MANY times in a lot of places. I'm sure a simple search will bring up more threads than you'd want to see.

When folks came on looking for shocks, you were the first to recommend HD's, despite the obvious lack of damping, despite the warning on page 1 of Bilstein's catalog that HD's are not suitable for lowering springs, despite the fact that others have had HD's and changed and noticed a big difference, and to despite the fact you had never tried anything else. That, to me, indicated you felt they were just fine. And many times you said you didn't need the extra time Revalves were worth. Again that indicates that you felt them fine. After all you recommend them to others without the all the details of the setup... something I don't do because the devil is in the details.

In the thread you first point to, you'll notice that I said I wasn't going to give out my work product. Then went on to put down 4 more paragraphs about shocks and valving and damping. If you'd like to give away you house for free, that's fine. But it's also important to note that no two of my valvings are necessarily the same.

To make my point that I've given lots of information out, you can check out these threads. To Mitch, a phone-call was it would have taken. Sadly you have to do everything by e-mail and I can't get the info I need to convey across that way.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...light=revalves
or
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...light=revalves
or
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...light=revalves

And I like this one: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...light=revalves
Wherein Mitch says "They are equally overpriced for the results you get, unless you are searching for tenths of a second on a given lap.

Revalving makes minute adjustments based upon a given pring rate, the type driving you do and where you drive. NASCAR revalves shocks based upon the track they visit.

So, if you are searching for that last tenth of a second on a given course or stretch of hiway, then revalves are for you"

It shows how little you pay attention Mitch... I don't make MINUTE changes, and for the upteenth time you'd have known that if you had asked me. I make changes generally by at least 10% and often as much as 30%, somtimes more. And not at one piston speed. Minute...... Not even close.

Folks, this is why I warn folks of the internet. A lot of mis-understooc information. Do yourself a favor and have a real-life conversation with a person. Sheeh.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Just the type response I expected

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

A valid one.....

Folks, you can talk directly to me, ask me anything you want. All you have to do it pick up the phone. Make your own decisions after you have the relevant details. Mitch didn't by his own admission. He chose to go another way and that's fine. If you chose to go another way that's also fine. But you should have all the information available to you before you make a decision. If you don't what you get is much more random.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

You crack me up, Sam ...

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I'm so glad... My day is made,

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I'm so glad... My day is made!