drummydummy

iTrader: (1)

What are the general opinions on bolt-on vs. weld-in subframe connectors and tell me which ones you are running and how you like them! I heard that dealerships will not take back a car with weld-in subframe connectors. If this is the only downside then I dont care. Are the weld-ins significantly stronger? I know they are chepaer than the bolt-ons so im thinking of going with them for this reason.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Not to be sarcastic, but why do you desire any SFC's? From the mods you listed, you won't benefit much at all, except a lighter wallet and a heavier car. The 4th gen chassis is already very stiff from the factory, except under extremely severe conditions (which at that point call for a full roll cage and other safety equipment).

You mention dealership, so it seems that you want to still have some service connections with them and not to heavily modify your vehicle.

Contrary to the consensus here on the board, SFC's don't really do much for the vehicle, especially for the money. Just to let you know I have a T-top and have tried them and haven't benefited from any of the 3 types I've tried, and my setup is one that many are always arguing that it needs, but not mine so far.

The dimples, I've inspected mine exhaustively and see none. Many dimples are probably already on the vehicle to begin with and I saw many new ones with them as well.

If you're not comfortable with the noises, go right to the source:

1. shocks, the decarbon's are horrible so look into an alternative.

2. inspect all bushings and mounts, and replace as needed.

3. Do you feel as if there is too much body sway? look into a newer set of stabiliser bars.

4. Check your interior for any loose parts and check for any loose foreign objects (toys and toy parts, loose currency, old cargo and their loose and broken parts).

RevGTO

iTrader: (12)

I put weld-ons on because I definitely developed wrinkles in my quarters. At first I thought the one on the right side was a door-edge ding, but closer inspection showed a subtle crease running about two inches up the quarter. I'm going to have a "dent doctor" dude work them out, but if they come back, I may ditch the SFC's. The car feels tighter with them, but they have made the ride a lot harsher.

1 SIC Z

iTrader: (34)

If you have t-tops you will want subframes. Wind noise will become louder and louder if you have any hard launches. I would spend the money knowing that everything will remain lined up with future mods.

John

drummydummy

iTrader: (1)

how about some advantages and disadvantages for each?

CarnivorWS.6-01

iTrader: (7)

I just bought a set of UMI 3pt. today. I have not installed them yet. I got them because the club I am in has some pretty hot cars and they all swear by them for adding structural strength as well as more jacking locations. It seemed like a worthwhile investment. We will see. I hear more positive than I have heard negatives.

pasbonsimon

iTrader: (12)

weld in is the way to go, you can always cut them off later
the bolt ons holes tend to grow with age

BriancWS6

iTrader: (18)

I had the weld in BMR tubular on my previous car. I will be going with weld ins again, but from a different company, most likely UMI Performance.

I like the weld ins over the bolt ons. A big plus of the bolt ons is that you don't have to have a welder or pay someone to weld them in for you. I welded my own in (machine/welding shop owner/operator ) With the weld ins they are bolted AND welded. IMHO, they are the best when you have to get down to the bottom line.

Bo White

iTrader: (59)

Buy bolt ons and weld em on . Just done the onstall this morning and very pleased(as always) with the results . SFCs are a must with any unibody....and the 4th gen may be strong but not enough IMHO . I am running Comp. Eng. #3108 and here is my thread:
www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423517
I have had 10 Camaros now and all have had SFCs installed

setxws6

Don't listen to Foxxton, he sounds off!

Get SFC and get them welded. A weld will hold up 10x longer than a bolt. SFC come in handy everywhere. They're good for getting rid of dash squeeks and like they said up top, help support T-tops. Also, I as well as everyone else here knows, that you aren't going to stop with the mods you have, and are going to add more and more power to the car, as well as Lower control arms, panhard bar, sway bars, etc. Once you start with all the other suspension mods, they will all complement each other, helping your tires get traction to the payment. And if you can't get traction, you have to look at 2 things, tires and suspension.

227Hawk

iTrader: (1)

I'm a rebel i guess , i have three point S.L.P. bolt in's. I've had them from the first month i purchased the car new. Never loosened up or given problems,
except for exhaust system changes.
Hawk

davered00ss

iTrader: (4)

Weld in's & SFC's should be your first mod.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

not as off as you think.

I have a few questions for you:

1. do you know your springs rates?
2. do you know actually your valve rates?
3. How long have you AXed and RRed?
4. don't you know that tires are very significant to handling, especially since they are the cars immediate contact with the friction surface it rides on? so why are you putting them last on your list?

Don't be so quick to say someone is off when you don't have that experience, because from what you say, it's opposite from what myself and other experts (Cal and Sam) here are aware of. Beside what do you know about me? I have had both 2-point, and two different 3-points SFC's welded on at numerous intervals. NOt to mention, I run over 400 rwhp with V710 on all four rims. Not at any time did they get rid of the T-tops rattling, whether they were on or off. Unless that car has been in one serious accident, or you're running around 700 rwhp, you're not going to need them.

De me and others a favour. If you have an opinion, speak for yourself, and not for others.

NHRAMAN

iTrader: (1)

WELD...ALL F-BODIES need SFC's.........PERIOD......

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Once again, it depends on what you're doing with the car performancewise. If there isn't any sign of rattling, why lighten the wallet to add wieght. Mine is over 140K, been through numerous AX and RR, and some heavy drag racing (not telling what I have, except for 400 rwhp), and the condition of the T-tops haven't changed. I still have none of the rattling mentioned.

If you are going to be doing nothing but hard launching, and have lots of HP, then the means could justify the end, but NOT ALL F-bodies need them, and I run some pretty high spring rates and my shocks have spherical bearings. I also run with some seriously sticky rubber.

If you gradually take the approach I mention in this thread, you'll see what I, Cal, and Sam are saying here.

It's your money, do want you want, but I take care in speaking the facts, not just what rumours say. The needs for SFC's are mostly a result of indirect advertising and a numerous placebo effects. Kind of reminds me of the Atkins Diet ordeal.

300bhp/ton

I hear what you say, and to a certain extent agree, but I can't help feeling that you are drawing the wrong conclusions.

Just because you haven't seen the gains doesn't mean they don't exist.

If there is/has been evidence of people having chassis twist, and people claim that the car feels sharper after installing them, then surely a reasonable conclusion would be that the chassis does indeed suffer from twist. Which is pretty expected really, I mean it's hardly the latest word in chassis technology is it.

But having twist doesn't mean it's bad, the original AC Cobra used to twist, but they used it to an advantage, gave it more power and fatter tyres. The chassis twisted more, but it kept all four wheels on the ground, allowing more grip overall. Had they sorted the chassis out, they would probably have run into problems with the suspension system no longer being able to cope. Go-Karts follow a similar principle when setting up, some times twist can be used to an advantage and sometimes not.

At the end of the day, provided the rest of the suspension is good enough, then having the most stable chassis is always paramount. Maybe the suspension on the Fbody just isn't quite so good, so a little bit of twist may be helpful in the corners. I guess you're probably more qualified than I to answer that one though.

But, seriously how many of these guys really care about cornering. Drag racing seems to be the main interest, so I say SFC's would be a benefit, even more so if body mounted torque arms are being used, as this will put more stress on the floorpan. Plus SFC's are pretty cheap and easy to install, and are not really all that heavy. I can see no plausible reason why not to get them.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Other than the scenario you mention, there is no plausible reason to get them. When you are concerned with handling, you don't want any more weight than necessary, and having 30lbs in the centre won't always result in negligible losses for optimal braking and handling charateristics. I have seen the gains of not having SFC's installed through the losses incurred on my lap times while having SFC' installed. Little as it may be, it's not worthwhile for the sake of trying to mask psuedo chassis rattles (rattles not caused by the monocoque, but rather loose stuff surrounding the monocoque).

As far as the chassis goes, it is a lot stiffer than people are aware of. If some of these people would learn to replace their shocks, check and replace worn mounts and/or bushings, and check the interior for any loose trim, change, toys, rubbish, and fix that stuff, then they'd be surprised at how much NVH is decreased. That darn floatly feel is mainly from worn shocks and stock stabiliser bars.

I agree with what you state about the floorpan mounted TA, since I have stated that in previous threads. Nevertheless, SOTP is a poor measuring tool to use, especially since it is often biased by a placebo effect from the individual who is running them. Not by what you said, but by what the consensus mentions by stating "my body is rattling and doesn't handle well, so I need SFC's." That results in getting a slightly stiffer chassis on the same poorly valved and very worn out shocks. Essentially a placebo effect of better handling, but in reality masking the true problem.

Again, that response was a request for those to speak their individual experience and research findings and not give opinion on others when they don't know S*** about them. I don't say that anybody else here is off nor tell them who to listen to, just that their claims aren't substantiated. I can assure everybody here that my responses are ego free and aren't intended to coerce anybody into not pruchasing what they want, however if you are stating that something is improving a certain aspect, then be prepared to have some significant proof of factual results through unbiased and consistent testing.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

That's true, Foxxtron does sound off!
But I'm afraind he is right inspite of that. One thing not everyone is aware of is SFC's were developed for the older fbodys, and the 3rd gens and Mustangs really need them. The 4th gen chassis was designed to be a convertible to start with, so if you don't have a 'vert, the car is already overbuilt. It's cheaper for GM to build all cars one way than to have a different floorpan for 'verts. Note that you still have a space for the cat under the passenger seat like the LT1 cars had.

As I think Foxxtron was hinting at, a six point roll bar or better yet a full cage will stiffen the chassis far better than SFC's, and will tend to save your sorry azz when you go rubber side up. I say put the steel inside the car,not below it. But hey, it's your money and your azz.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

OUCH! Paid da cost for including the name of the boss

Anyways, the master mentions roll cage, which is a more ideal solution for stiffening the monocoque and better's your chance in keeping you alive in when your car assumes the dying cockroach position.

I have to admit that's one thing I failed to mention, so yeah that'll make me sound off, but beware when operating without a helmet and proper seat restraint, because if your noggin shall make naked contact with that bar, your noggin can end up like humpty dumpty.

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

just an fyi my BMR SFC are 16lbs together not 30 like mentioned above. and they are mild steel not Chromemoly