bluey2kz28

How many of you have installed Earl's, or other brand, brake lines in your cars and have noticed an increase in your braking performance, no change or a decrease in braking performance?

I know there are threads concerning the subject, but I would like new or current opinions on the subject.

Thanks

joshp14

iTrader: (5)

I have the Earls SS lines...noticed a small differeence in pedal firmness...after all, there isnt any more rubber brake lines on my entire car, so the lines dont flex or expand when pressure is put on them.

227Hawk

iTrader: (1)

Oh **** i'm in trouble. The Steel braid brake lines are more a cosmetic upgrade.
The improvement in pedal action is fresh brake fluid and bleeding the brakes.
Hawk

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

ding, ding, ding!

We have a winner!

1QUIKWS6

iTrader: (61)

So that would mean that all the Indy Cars use SS brake lines for appearance reasons only Somehow I don't think so...

While it is true that proper bleeding and fresh fluid will always improve brake feel - it is also true that the SS lines do not expand under the high pressures exerted upon them by the braking system like the stock rubber lines will.

How evident this difference will feel while comparing new stock lines to SS is probably slight - but replace an old set of stockers and you will notice. Plus the fact that they will probably last the lifetime of your car is not a bad reason to install.

If they dont pay the bills here, dont try to generate sales for them
-Donaimian

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Indy cars don't drive the open road where grit gets between the braid and inner liner, creating a sheet of sand paper.

While I can't speak for Indy racing cars, my experience in building Trans AM GT cars had us replacing brake lines 3 or 4 times a year.

In my CMC Firebird road racing car, I use -3 AN steel braided brake lines. But I also used heat shrink to protect them.

When some of you compare a street car to a REAL race makes me think the movie "Fast and Furious" was a documentary ...

1QUIKWS6

iTrader: (61)

I can't say that the possibility of what you are saying is not true - however, I find it hard to believe that the companies selling/marketing the street versions of the lines did not take this into account somehow, otherwise they may be in for a very large lawsuit upon the unexpected/catastrophic failure of a brake line. They do not put a disclaimer on their products that they are only good for a certain amount of time/mileage and need to be checked/replaced regularly - and the products are DOT Certified - which must mean something. They are in no way represented as 'For Off Road Use Only' but meant specifically for street use.

The Earl's brand I have DO have shrink wrap from each end and up the braid for a distance - but not the entire length as it seems you are doing - obviously you are custom making these lines to be able to shrink wrap them yourself.

I'm not trying to compare an Indy car to a street car - just stating that they use them for a performance reason - not for appearance.

Many of the parts/ideas that make it to production cars are the result of years of testing/use on racing vehicles - so what they are doing does apply to an extent. Obviously GM is not going to put these into production cars due to the xtra cost involved. It should be fairly evident to everyone that they will shave every little penny off the production cost of a passenger vehicle in order to realize more profit. This is not to say however, that the SS lines are not better, or don't perform better - just that the OEM's don't feel that their performance value added is worth undercutting THEIR cost.

RICRH8R

So do you think that the stock lines are comletely rubber? Do you really think a none reinforced (either nylon or steel braid) hose can withstand 1500psi. All fatcory flexable brake lines have a rubber inner and outer layer with a reinforcement braid between them. The aftermarket lines only add a second braid to the outside. Does it reduce expanding, maybe a very small amount, would you notice the difference in feel or reduced stoping distance im gonna say not. Also like Mitchntx said stainless steel braided lines are not invulnerable, aircraft hoses are life-limited they get replaced before they can fail because of of abrasion.

1QUIKWS6

iTrader: (61)

Guess I have to continue to disagree..

I am perfectly aware that the stock hoses are not simply a rubber hose. Maybe you should do some checking to see what the SS braided hoses are made from internally - could it be that they are a SS braid over a TEFLON hose? Characteristics of expansion of teflon are much better than any amount of internal braid added to rubber hose. Should be evident by the fact that the SS lines are approx. 1/4" in diameter while the stock rubber are 1/2" in dia. The SS lines do not need to use 'bulk' to contain the high pressures - they use a better material.

FACT:
SS braided brake lines will result in a firmer brake pedal, improved brake pedal feel and better brake modualtion.

The cost of the available street use lines out there are not that high that it makes it a very hard decision. People will throw $$ away on things such as TB Coolant Bypass Kits, Timing Trickers, larger MAF's/TB's/Injectors (when their engine is basically stock), electric water pumps for the street, A/F Gages that read narrowband signals, etc. without a second thought.

BTW, who was it that I was supposedly generating sales for in my earlier post? I have mentioned the mgf. of the lines I have - but that same mfg. was mentioned numerous times from the first post on down. Maybe I was singled out due to the reason I disagree with a certain forum member...

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

And you conclude this fact based upon what objective data?

'99slobird

iTrader: (7)

Quoting the Back of the Earl's box on the one's that I just bought. Not going either way, just replacing since I'm getting rotors and pads, and mine are seven years old.

".....1996 Toyota Supra equipped with anti-lock brakes. Professional drivers were used on a closed course. Since many variables exist in the time of an emergency stop - no specific results are implied or guaranteed beyond the fact that our test demonstrated Hyperfirm hoses reduce stopping distances when all other consistant factors are constant"

A graph to the side graphs Hyperfirm hoses with a 158 ft. stopping distance to an OEM 176 ft. for a gain of 11%. In theory, it seeems to make since that they would perform better, but it doesn't sound like any huge guarantees or claims are maid by the manufacturer. But hey, at least they're honest about their test. They could be like the fine folks at K&N and make some ginormous sales pitches.

Personally, I just bought mine because I needed some new ones and they look cool. Bluey2kz28, you seem to have created a pretty heated debate!

OneMeanZ

iTrader: (2)

This is probably just a case just like SFCs.

Trying to fix a problem without actually looking at the problem. The pedal feels mushy, then it must need SS lines. Where a simple flush and new fluid will do wonders.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Hate to do this, but that isn't a hard fact as there are many variables dealing with OEM lines from different cars to determine that statement. Even my big brake manufactuer clarifies that supposed statement as being dependent upon individual design, age, and usage. Even when I had enquired over the phone, the salesman patiently, prudently, and with integrity explained that they have the same DOT certified SS lines for my rear brakes, but kind of mentioned it with a normalised tone to his voice, then stated that the real improvement comes from an improved brake fluid.

Like it or not, mitchntx is right on and those who claim that the hoses make a difference after replacing their fluid with a higher boiling point and improved hygroscopic properties and replacing their older hoses with SS lines simultaneously will not be able to completely support that fact, since indeed they haven't isolated the problem constraining their "test" by only replacing the lines themselves. The real way to test this would be run a test like this (no excuses for it being time consuming) and remember that this should be performed with constraining every other factor ceteris parabis:

1. Flush and replace with the used OE brake fluid after installing brand new OE brake lines.
2. Flush and replace with the used (exact fluid used in number one) OE brake fluid then switching to brand new SS aftermarket lines.
3. Flush and replace with fresh brake fluid with higher a boiling point and improved hygroscopic properties retaining the SS aftermarket lines.
4. Flush and replace with fresh brake fluid with higher a boiling point and improved hygroscopic properties after reverting back to the brand new OE brake lines.

This should be performed consistently with the exact same concern for completeness and safety. Your brake pads, rotors, and other parts of the brake system should be in near excellent working condition for this to work and all visible air bubbles should be completely purged from the brake system with each and every change.

I once performed this and guess what? 2 and 3 yielded somewhat noticably different results, while 1 and 2 yielded the same pedal firmness as did 3 with 4. I did all of the mechanic work while my friend did most, if not all of the driving on an AX course and never once was allowed to inspect for himself. Times were recorded as well, though the differences were really miniscule, which is what we expected. As a matter of fact, I told him we were taking turns in my vehicle to see who "drives better" so I can keep somewhat of a control on possible placebo effects (since I did the work, I was predisposed to placebo effects). This all was performed before my big brake kit was ever considered to be installed, nevertheless purchased.

In saying this, the very slight improvement in pedal stiffness was practically all from the brake fluid and practically none from the SS lines.

EDIT:

That statement is coming from someone who appears to be prudent and detail oriented with diagnosing what is wrong, rather than popping the placebo pill like several around this board love to do.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Sorry ... I disagree.

The only way to REALLY test this theory would be build a fixture that would incrementally fluid temp while pressurizing and releasing pressure on the lines.

Some sort of data collection would need to take place that would not only measure the ID of the hose during this evolution but also measure volume of fluid used to pressurize the hose.

Maybe these guys can help ...

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Gee, walk into NAPA and ask for a brake line for a 1995 Lola chassis.... Good luck with that one. You wind up having to build them, so you use the stuff that's easy to work with and has fittings available. It's not worth the cost to a team to tool up to make anything else when lines are cheap enough to just throw away with the brake pads (in the grand scheme of running a team, a few hoses are almost "free"). Braided lines are a wear item and are tossed in the trash accordingly on a regular schedule. Will you throw away your braided hoses on a regular schedule?

Let me correct this for you:

My friend, you are an optimist. You are assuming that everyone making parts for cars have the required knowledge to build the item properly. Just because I can get fittings and make up hoses does not make me a fluid transfer engineer. If I find a way to make up hoses that fit and decide to sell them to you, you assume that I've tested these hoses and know what I'm doing. That's not always exactly correct in todays world. Yes, they could be in for a lawsuit, but in todays world, everyone is in for a lawsuit. It's the universal answer, when in doubt, sue someone.

Most of the DOT legal (all of them?) will be wrapped in a protective layer of rubber to seal out dirt. The fact that many have this feature isn't an accident. It's in response to the problem of dirt getting into the braids and the potential for ruptured hose liners. It's surely not done to save money.

Nobody else brought it up..... Again, go ask for a brake line for an indy car at NAPA. Yes, they have a performance benefit of slightly less expansion than most rubber based lines. Slight. And, they are a disposable wear item in that application.

If people want to run them, they are free to do so. I'm running 6 piston Wilwoods and had to use braided lines for that, but I didn't bother to change my stock rear hoses, the rubber stuff it all still there and works great for me. And, even if they are shiny and pretty, nobody can really see them when the car is assembled. So, I'd not bother looking at them as a "bling" upgrade.

But that's just me.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Actually, that's a much better method for tesing the true differences between the OE fibreglass stranded lines and the aftermarket SS lines, however the method I mentioned did indeed separate what had a bigger effect on the stiffness concerning the two, fluid vs. brake line.

BTW, for those who decided dissect the OE brake line will discover the strand, but the strands in the OE line I dissected were fibreglass, not stainless steel.

EDIT: bear in mind that it actually was used OE brake fluid, not new OE fluid as I mentioned. Basically, it's hygroscopic properties were worse to begin with, but even worse when saturated with a compressible chemical (water).

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I've only ever found fiberglass in OEM lines myself. I've never seen one with stainless in it thus far.

bluey2kz28

What did I start here???

Thank you all for your input on the subject. I really do appreciate the feedback.

Just so that you all know, I went with a set of Earl’s ss brake lines. They sure look a whole lot better than the factory rubber hoses.

As for the performance factor, I’ll let you all know what my opinion on the subject is when I install and break them in.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

wow... good read


ixnay on the SS hoses then and flush fluid regularly.