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iTrader: (6)

Just installed my new Dana S60 rear and BMR springs mated to HAL 12 way shocks. It also has a spohn 25mm rear swaybar. I've played around with the shock settings a bit but the car just plain rides like crap. You cannot rest your head against the back of the seat because it will bounce your brains out of your head. Most of the bouncyness is coming from the back. I'm wondering if the swaybar mounts, and endlings are just too tight?? Or the settings may be way off? I'm running 6 in the front and 4 in the rear on the HAL's.

What the heck is going on? I expect a different ride, but this almost feels like something is wrong. Any suggestions?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Terrible combination of parts. Shocks that can't control the spring rate on rebound. Shocks that can't control all the extra unsprung weight from the Dana (which I heard is about 60 pound heavier than the stock 10-bolot) on compression. The bar is too big for anything but drag use, but it won't effect ride if you are going straight and aren't hitting big bumps with just one wheel.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

The car will see some road racing but its primarily a drag car. I will try messing around with the settings some more today. First and foremost I want to make the ride better. It just feels like crap now.

If it is a horrible combo of parts what setups are all these 12 bolt/9inch guys using with lowered springs in drag apps? Compared to some other manufactureres BMR's do have a higher spring rate in the rear.

What do you suggest?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Folks do lots of things, but that doesn't make them good.

Your springs aren't my favorite, but they aren't the issue here. It's mostly the shocks, and you won't like it when I tell you the in order to control that kind of unsprung weight, you are really going to need Double Adjustable Koni's.

I'm also betting you have some kind of non-stock LCA's too. And if they are poly bushed at both ends, there is problem #2.

The size of the bar is #3, it's too big for handling (track or street), but whay you want if you have a car that launches hard.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

The swaybar I can change quickly so thats not a problem. I think its way to big for the road course and I will probably go back to a stock one for that. It has BMR boxed LCA's with poly/poly.

From my reading here the past few years I already knew you were a koni advocate and not so much for the HAL's. But I have to ask, how do the koni's fare in a drag racing application? If the valving combo can be made to work then fine. But i'm not looking for road race setup.

My priorities are as follows

1) street ride quality
2) drag
3) handling

What would the koni's you speak of end up costing me? You can PM me if you like.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

You say that you're not looking for a road race setup (but have mentioned removing that bar for the "road course"), and list handling as #2 (right behind drag). You can't have it all. Just like John Force's car is not going to beat me around a road course, I'm not going to beat him going straight (extreme example I know). But the fact is that HAL's are drag shocks. Drag shocks are "loose" and underdamped as a function of allowing weight transfer to occur in a drag situation. It allows the car to "float" and they do not try to properly damp the motions of the chassis. In effect, HAL's (and other drag shocks) are like putting worn out shocks on your car. They work in a similar manner. This is good for drag racing use and if that's your intended goal, those shocks will help. However, it's bad for much of anything else.

Another thing. Drag cars usually use very soft springs in the front (and sometimes the rear). The reason is that a soft spring will be very long (free length) and therefore it will help lift the nose as you launch. A handling/lowering spring (like the BMR) is shorter than stock (in most cases) and stiffer than stock. So, you lose the lift that you'd get from a long/soft spring (since it's been compressed several inches to get to your normal ride height, it has several inches of extension (energy) stored to lift the car at launch). This is why HAL's are often sold with 300 in lb springs (give or take).

You've paired fairly stiff springs with very "free" (loose?) shocks. This allows the car to bounce and wobble down the road while beating you to death in the process. Unfortunately, you've already learned this the hard way. HAL shocks are going to allow the car to bounce (like you have it doing now), that's the function of drag shocks. Adding stiffer springs to them just makes matters worse. If you think you can live with the rubber band ride of the HAL's, I'd look into getting real drag springs (something softer than what you have) on the car. It will still ride poorly, but not as bad as it does now. If not, I'd ditch the shocks and look into something different. Koni's are not truly drag shocks, but you have some ability to adjust them for track use. They won't perform on the strip like HAL's (I can't give you an actual time difference), but the HAL's won't perform or ride on the street like the Koni's. I'd run DeCarbons with BMR springs before I'd run HAL's (for ride/handling) and I won't suggest running DeCarbons with much of anything.


They are about that close together. You can drag race a road race car, but you can't road race a drag race car.

A spring change will help, but it's not a miracle cure for those shocks.

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iTrader: (6)

I am not road racing in competition, just for fun. If I can get away with handling thats not worse than a stock fbody, thats fine. I'm not going to do things to the car that will kill its drag racing performance just to road race it twice a year. BMR springs have worked alright for people who drag race, just probably not with HAL's. I have ridden in cars with HAL's and AFCO's and they rode just fine on the street. I will agree that the BMR springs and HAL's are probably not the best combo.

I FULLY understand that a HAL is not a handling shock and is more for a drag application. I just did not think it would be this bad, and I still dont think it should be. I will play around with them some more before I throw more money out the window.

YellowToy/A

iTrader: (1)

Put the stock springs back in. Dropping the car will not help a drag car. Try it in the back the swap should not take long.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

I lived with stock springs and a nasty looking ride height long enough. I have seen lowered cars work just fine ( I can see all the drag racers rolling their eyes ) If this setup will absolutely not work, I will look for a lowering spring that has a lower rate. I dont think removing the isolator on the rears will get me what I want with a stock spring. Trust me i'm not using BMR's because I wanted a stiff spring rate, it was the look of the 1" drop. I just didn't think that the BMR's increase from stock would make that big of a difference, but it did.

YellowToy/A

iTrader: (1)

Springs keep the car off the road. Lower the car the higher the rates. If you want to lower ur car u need more rate if u want to drive it on the street. Drag cars like soft springs and drag shocks. If you want a drag car that u trailer to the strip then lower it with soft springs. If you want a street car that will go to the strip, stock ride height and springs r for u. My freind has a 10.5 car and found that out.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I doubt you'll get a car on HAL's to handle as well as a stock F-body. Again, it's just the nature of HAL's. If they would handle like a stock F-body, then a stock F-body would drag race just like a car with HAL's. (Did that make sense?). They have so little rebound damping, the car just flops around on the suspension. If you crank them up, you'll make the ride harsh, but it does little for actually giving you a damping rate you can use. Again, I'm not telling you that you have to get rid of them, just that you'll have to decide which part of the compromise you can accept. One more thing to consider, HAL's are not pressurized and will typically fade under road course conditions. Shocks make heat as a function of doing their job and once they get hot enough, they will boil the fluid. I suspect they'll just start leaking by then (based on what I've seen, but I could be wrong).

With those spring rates and minimal damping, I'm going to guess it will be "that bad". I don't think anything is broken, it's just a bad match.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

Yup I guess they are that bad. I'm finding that out now.



OEM GM springs (F) 292 (R) 114

BMR 310-550 145-170

Hotchkis 285-525 100-140

SLP level 1 223-448 97-136

Eibach Prokit 400 80-137


I'm gonna look into this some more. If I can have a nice ride on the street with HALs and get the car a tad lower than stock I would be happy. I can run the stock springs and shocks front and rear for the couple club days at the road course if the HAL's will be worse, and it looks like they will be for that type of stuff. There are so many directions to go here, keep the BMR's and try to find a shock (koni's possibly) that will control them but still work decent in a drag app. Or ditch the bmr's for a softer lowering spring. I am also thinking about taking the isolators out from the rear, and running a hal 275 or 300 spring in the front as a street/strip combo and just run a stock setup to get me thru RR days.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

It's not the springs... I'm telling you. You'll change them, and might see a little change for the good, but it still won't be good.

It rides like *** because you have LCA's that ride like ***, and shocks that damp like it too. Those are your problems, above all. And the shocks are more the issue than the poly bushings.

Sounds to me like you don't like the answer (because it's the most costly parts that suck the most). But you'll go through all this work, money and time and it'll still suck.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

Yea pretty much.


Let me ask you this, on the softest setting on a Koni, would I be able to achieve some front end lift for dragracing? Or are they just way firmer to begin with?


The LCA's and tq arm were worth the slight seat of the pants decrease in handling for the big improvement in straight line performance though, so they aren't going anywhere. For road racing do you guys run stock LCA's and stock tq arms?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

No, you don't understand. You are thinking in this tiny little box and that's not good. First off you did just what you shouldn't have, which is buy a bunch of things at once, and install them at once. So you can't tell what part did what. If you did them step by step, you'd not be so suspicious. How do you know the LCA's and torque are in this example are worth the trade-off? How do you know the LCA's are of little help and the TA is the real help or vice-versa?

You could have done LCA's that don't bind up, and have even less deflection too. We run TA's and LCA's sometimes, but the trick is to run the proper type.

Koni's are not drag shocks. They are firmer, but they aren't brick stiff, and for god's sake if you have any kind of traction they won't keep the car from weight transferring......

Honestly, you bought into the easy stuff. Sounds to me like you just kind of did research by seeing what the internet wisdom is, and that's biting you now.

I don't do things half-assed. So I'm not going to stand up and say do this and that. That's what got you here in the first place. You need to understand why you'd do this part and that one, but also what they do that might work against you. Nobody told you any of that I bet.

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iTrader: (6)

The springs and shocks are the only things that have changed, and the mistake I made was thinking the HAL's could control a lowering spring like the ones I bought. When installing the new rear end, I put in the new springs and rear shocks at the same time. Only made sense to do so.

The LCA's, torque arm, panhard, swaybar have all been on the car for the last 3 years and 4 10-bolt rears I have eaten up. I know they made a significant difference in 60'. The ride with stock shocks and all the aftermarket rear suspension stuff was fine imo, nothing like this combination is now.

When researching Hal's I never remember anyone complaining about driving them on the street. With stock springs the car will look fugly but probably drive alright. My mistake was to try to make it lower with lowering springs and keep the Hals and I didn't think about that because I figured hey they're 12 way adjustable I can just firm them up on the street and be good. buzzz wrong answer.

I cannot spend $1200 on shocks to find a less than stellar 60'. I wish I could see if I liked them and go from there but thats not possible. If I can achive great 60' and a decent street ride (basically a street/strip combo) thats all i'm looking for since thats 95% of what I do.

johnpate01

iTrader: (3)

Konis are not $1200, more like $700ish for all 4. Go to sam's website. Its www.stranoparts.com Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about. Call him and he can get you set up with what you need at a good price.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

Those are the single adjustables. I believe he recommended the double adj, and from what I have seen on the web those are comsiderably more. I know he knows what he's talking about. I'd love to have 2 different shock setups but can't afford that so I'll have to lean one way or the other.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

The SA's have a rebound adjustment. That is what you need to soften to let the front end rise. As stated, the Koni's will not let the front come up like HAL's, but HAL's won't control the car properly (like a Koni).

It's back to that "you can't have it all" problem. A quick, drag race tuned, vehicle is not going to drive or handle well at all. Drag racing requres very little rebound damping in the shocks. Handling requres a bunch of rebound damping in the shocks. They really are polar opposites. It sucks, but once you realize that you can't do it all on one setup, you'll have a much better time picking a direction (sounds like you already have decided that drag racing is the focus, which is fine). I would not suggest driving a car on drag shocks on a road course. I'm afraid that could make for an expensive encounter with a tire wall, etc. The car will probably be absolutely scary on track with your current shocks.

What do you consider a "decent" 60 foot?

What was your 60 foot on stock shocks?

What do you pull on the HAL's?

That may be useful information for anyone to assist you.

QUASAR

iTrader: (6)

I have always leaned toward a drag setup but I need to see how the hal's are on the street with stock springs. If there is no amount of adjustment I can make to them to have them ride "nice" on the street than I will probably get rid of them even though they are a great drag shock.

I am running a road course tomorrow. Dont worry I took the hal/bmr setup off, no way was I going to run it that way any longer and risk an accident on the track or ruining the shocks from those agressive springs. I have the stock springs and stock decarbons on it. Also back to a stock rear bar.

An ideal 60' is a 1.4x I would like to make use of this tank of a rear end. The stock 10 bolts never lived past 1.7's, and that was with horrible 3.42 gearing and not alot of power. Now there's more power and more gear, and I would like to make use of it.

I would like some cake.... and I want to eat it too!