LCA gimmic or not?
12-02-2006, 06:42 PM
#1
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LCA gimmic or not? looking at options for LCA's and ran across this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERF-...QQcmdZViewItem
anyone use these?
I have been looking at UMI F-Body Tubular Adjustable Lower Control Arms, but if the hotparts lca actually works and holds up, i will try them based on the price difference.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERF-...QQcmdZViewItem
anyone use these?
I have been looking at UMI F-Body Tubular Adjustable Lower Control Arms, but if the hotparts lca actually works and holds up, i will try them based on the price difference.
12-02-2006, 07:02 PM
#2
I've heard some stuff about those on here, but there isn't much info out there. Really, with the number of LCAs out there, you really aren't paying the price for the part itself...you are paying for the support and the customer service backing them up. I'd gladly pay UMI a little more (if they even are more) for their customer service. Second to none...
12-02-2006, 07:14 PM
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i totally agree UMI is second to none, decision making is harder when parts money is short.
your probably right, that i should just do it right the first time and go with UMI.
After all i did go with UMI's boxed SFC's. i just wish BYUNSPEED would freaking ship them already, its been a week and a half since i ordered them!!
your probably right, that i should just do it right the first time and go with UMI.
After all i did go with UMI's boxed SFC's. i just wish BYUNSPEED would freaking ship them already, its been a week and a half since i ordered them!!
12-02-2006, 07:21 PM
#4
Originally Posted by -Freak-
i totally agree UMI is second to none, decision making is harder when parts money is short.
your probably right, that i should just do it right the first time and go with UMI.
After all i did go with UMI's boxed SFC's. i just wish BYUNSPEED would freaking ship them already, its been a week and a half since i ordered them!!
your probably right, that i should just do it right the first time and go with UMI.
After all i did go with UMI's boxed SFC's. i just wish BYUNSPEED would freaking ship them already, its been a week and a half since i ordered them!!
12-02-2006, 09:30 PM
#5
Originally Posted by -Freak-
looking at options for LCA's and ran across this.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERF-...QQcmdZViewItem
anyone use these?
I have been looking at UMI F-Body Tubular Adjustable Lower Control Arms, but if the hotparts lca actually works and holds up, i will try them based on the price difference.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERF-...QQcmdZViewItem
anyone use these?
I have been looking at UMI F-Body Tubular Adjustable Lower Control Arms, but if the hotparts lca actually works and holds up, i will try them based on the price difference.
. Just click on the link on our home page for more information. www.umiperformance.com/2015.aspx
Also orders are shipping as quick as possible. Thanks for the patients!
Ryan
12-02-2006, 10:30 PM
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hahaha, i knew Ryan would be along.
I'm saving up for your poly/rod control arms.
Your customer service in this thread is what sold me. https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/608412-check-out-my-friend-s-torque-arm.html
(I just bought some UMI LCA relocations brackets off your ebay store.)
I'm saving up for your poly/rod control arms.
Your customer service in this thread is what sold me. https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/608412-check-out-my-friend-s-torque-arm.html
(I just bought some UMI LCA relocations brackets off your ebay store.)
Last edited by -Freak-; 12-10-2006 at 12:42 AM.
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12-03-2006, 12:12 AM
#8
Originally Posted by UMI Performance
Our tubular control control arms are actually priced at $89.99 a set with our 10% off sale we are right now . Just click on the link on our home page for more information.
www.umiperformance.com/2015.aspx
Also orders are shipping as quick as possible. Thanks for the patients!
Ryan
. Just click on the link on our home page for more information. www.umiperformance.com/2015.aspx
Also orders are shipping as quick as possible. Thanks for the patients!
Ryan
12-03-2006, 12:40 AM
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I'd rather go wiht UMI... they sate what material each part is made of and they TIG weld their LCA's as well. These hotpart pieces are for sure MIG weld and there is nothing about what kind of tubing they are using. the last thinkg you would want is a control arm to take a tweak or scarier fail because a weld broke.
The whole pattent pending bushing looks like a gimmick to me.
The whole pattent pending bushing looks like a gimmick to me.
12-03-2006, 11:50 AM
#10
The issue of the poly bushing binding is very real and that site described it accurately. That's why most corner minded cars don't run poly bushings, they run rod ends. That fixes the bind, but adds noise and harshness. One good alternative is a thin rubber bushing on one end and a rod end on the other. More info on those here: (http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=3553&)
As the car tilts the LCA's need to twist and the stock rubber bushings allow that. Poly bushings tend to bind and effectively increase the spring rate. While cornering hard and hitting a bump it could jar the rear end loose because the LCA acts like it has a much stronger spring on it (the LCA doesn't want to move up or down due to the bind) so instead of the tire moving up or down following the bump and keeping grip on the road the whole car will bounce and that breaks the grip.
What J&M Products has made certianly isn't new, but I suppose it's different enough to get a patend on.
It's basically patterned after these:
Currie Enterprises Johnny Joint
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...e_enterprises/
PORC Large Flex Joint
http://www.performanceoffroadcenter....8719a88acc8748
Summit Machine Flex Joint
http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/store/in...5&prevstart=12
Rubicon Express Large bushing
http://www.rubiconexpress.com/Produc...&Vid=C40254712 and a few others.
This is the first I'm seeing of the J&M Products LCA's, but they look like a pretty good design. They have the right idea and as long as the outer cups are fairly soft, it should allow bind free twisting. I don't think this is a gimmick. I'm going to look into these some more.
As the car tilts the LCA's need to twist and the stock rubber bushings allow that. Poly bushings tend to bind and effectively increase the spring rate. While cornering hard and hitting a bump it could jar the rear end loose because the LCA acts like it has a much stronger spring on it (the LCA doesn't want to move up or down due to the bind) so instead of the tire moving up or down following the bump and keeping grip on the road the whole car will bounce and that breaks the grip.
What J&M Products has made certianly isn't new, but I suppose it's different enough to get a patend on.
It's basically patterned after these:
Currie Enterprises Johnny Joint
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...e_enterprises/
PORC Large Flex Joint
http://www.performanceoffroadcenter....8719a88acc8748
Summit Machine Flex Joint
http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/store/in...5&prevstart=12
Rubicon Express Large bushing
http://www.rubiconexpress.com/Produc...&Vid=C40254712 and a few others.
This is the first I'm seeing of the J&M Products LCA's, but they look like a pretty good design. They have the right idea and as long as the outer cups are fairly soft, it should allow bind free twisting. I don't think this is a gimmick. I'm going to look into these some more.
12-03-2006, 12:20 PM
#11
I take back not hearing about this company. J&M isn't familiar, but HOTPART is. I bought a PHR from them a little over a year ago. They use top notch FK brand jm12t teflon lined rod ends. Mine are still tight. Based on this one part I think they are a pretty good company. Time will tell as far as that LCA arm design.
It's funny, I had a word with Brian Croutcher of J&M Products about their rod ended LCA's (as well as their PHR) last year and he said interest was falling off so I told him all about the rubber/rod style arms. I wonder if that's where they got the idea for this ball design?
Ahhh, probably not.
EDIT: He did say
This ball design must have been what he was talking about.
It's funny, I had a word with Brian Croutcher of J&M Products about their rod ended LCA's (as well as their PHR) last year and he said interest was falling off so I told him all about the rubber/rod style arms. I wonder if that's where they got the idea for this ball design?
Ahhh, probably not.
EDIT: He did say
We will be having another change regarding our bushings in late November (2005). I cannot go into more details until then but all our current arms will be upgradeable to it.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-03-2006 at 12:30 PM.
12-03-2006, 03:04 PM
#13
Originally Posted by JasonWW
I take back not hearing about this company. J&M isn't familiar, but HOTPART is. I bought a PHR from them a little over a year ago. They use top notch FK brand jm12t teflon lined rod ends. Mine are still tight. Based on this one part I think they are a pretty good company. Time will tell as far as that LCA arm design.
It's funny, I had a word with Brian Croutcher of J&M Products about their rod ended LCA's (as well as their PHR) last year and he said interest was falling off so I told him all about the rubber/rod style arms. I wonder if that's where they got the idea for this ball design?
Ahhh, probably not.
EDIT: He did say
This ball design must have been what he was talking about.
It's funny, I had a word with Brian Croutcher of J&M Products about their rod ended LCA's (as well as their PHR) last year and he said interest was falling off so I told him all about the rubber/rod style arms. I wonder if that's where they got the idea for this ball design?
Ahhh, probably not.
EDIT: He did say
This ball design must have been what he was talking about.
12-03-2006, 04:38 PM
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I know aobut the poly bushing binding but I still think its a gimmick.. I don't see how putting the ball in the center is going to allow lateral rotation since the arm still has to fight the poly bushings at either end to rotate.
12-03-2006, 07:59 PM
#18
Just think of the inner ball without the cups. It allows for forward and rear control while allowing for tilt in all directions. The cups only purpose is to keep the metal arm itself from touching the car. That's all it really needs to do.
I was looking into building a LCA for myself about a year ago based on a rod end and one of those Rubicon Express Large bushings I posted about. That's why I knew about all those bushings. I frankly gave up on the idea as I would have to order custom length arms and fab spacers and stuff. Now that I see someone has basically made what I was thinking of back then it makes these my first choice for a new LCA. Now I just need to decide on the street or race version.
Has anyone posted reviews or commented on the noise levels?
I was looking into building a LCA for myself about a year ago based on a rod end and one of those Rubicon Express Large bushings I posted about. That's why I knew about all those bushings. I frankly gave up on the idea as I would have to order custom length arms and fab spacers and stuff. Now that I see someone has basically made what I was thinking of back then it makes these my first choice for a new LCA. Now I just need to decide on the street or race version.
Has anyone posted reviews or commented on the noise levels?
12-03-2006, 08:08 PM
#19
Wow, I just heard back from Brian about the welds and metal these arms use. (He answers email on Sunday? )
Anyway, here is what he said:
)Anyway, here is what he said:
We use a 1.75"x.095" 1020 Steel tubing. The welds are what is called pulse welds, this is a high frequency (similar to tig) process but it is wire fed like short arc (mig). This allows for similar penetration as tig but allows for greater strength from extra weld material. We switched to this process primarily for our camber plates but when we did the strength testing we decided to switch most of our welds to pulse. The testing we did on our camber plate bearing mounts was the TIG weld consistently failed at 7.2 tons and the pulse mig welds consistently failed at 8.1 tons.
12-03-2006, 11:30 PM
#20
You can pulse mig, pulse tig, use sequencers etc.
For example, we tig our components using a pulsar and sequencer for the simple fact we are using 4130 chrome-moly. All welds can be designed strong, mig or tig. The material, time and cost depict what should be used. I’d mig weld this material as well since it is less expensive as well as faster. Mild steel works well with both welding types. Different filler materials can be used for different situations ER70SB2, 80SB2...bla bla.
I've looked at the bearing design again just to see if I was missing something....even discussed this with one of my co-engineers to see if I was missing something...we both don't see advantage. Maybe we are both missing something. The friction coefficient between the ball and socket will be high, especially since they are compressed from the bolts. Furthermore, the shaft cannot rotate freely like a rod-end since it is bound by the limits of the internal diameter of the rubber bushings.
If the bushing is so soft is deforms to allow for rotation, you may as well just be using a rubber stock bushing. It may be slightly less, but to see/feel any difference, I think that may be a tough one to notice. I'd like to see a comparison between rubber bushings and these to feel differently. This does do one thing though, it brings attention to their products for being different of which I commend them for...
…I’d stick with one of the vendors products who pay for advertising on the board, I think you’ll be very satisfied. I'd pick one of UMI's rod end and poly/rubber end combo's before I'd consider this one.
For example, we tig our components using a pulsar and sequencer for the simple fact we are using 4130 chrome-moly. All welds can be designed strong, mig or tig. The material, time and cost depict what should be used. I’d mig weld this material as well since it is less expensive as well as faster. Mild steel works well with both welding types. Different filler materials can be used for different situations ER70SB2, 80SB2...bla bla.
I've looked at the bearing design again just to see if I was missing something....even discussed this with one of my co-engineers to see if I was missing something...we both don't see advantage. Maybe we are both missing something. The friction coefficient between the ball and socket will be high, especially since they are compressed from the bolts. Furthermore, the shaft cannot rotate freely like a rod-end since it is bound by the limits of the internal diameter of the rubber bushings.
If the bushing is so soft is deforms to allow for rotation, you may as well just be using a rubber stock bushing. It may be slightly less, but to see/feel any difference, I think that may be a tough one to notice. I'd like to see a comparison between rubber bushings and these to feel differently. This does do one thing though, it brings attention to their products for being different of which I commend them for...
…I’d stick with one of the vendors products who pay for advertising on the board, I think you’ll be very satisfied. I'd pick one of UMI's rod end and poly/rubber end combo's before I'd consider this one.
Last edited by SJM Manufacturing Inc; 12-03-2006 at 11:38 PM.