'70 Nova LY6/TH400 6.0VVT
08-09-2012, 02:55 PM
#461
I have been learning more about the VVT-2 cam that I have and thought I would share. I know this erodes at the secrecy surrounding the TSP grinds, but with what I've learned I would say there really is no big secret to this grind. The cam specs were on the card delivered with my cam and I obtained the lobe numbers from Comp with very little work. The grind uses LSL lobes and the specs are 227/235 .614/.621 113LSA+6 (107ICL). This cam is identical to the 277LR 3-bolt camshaft (54-458-11) that has been out for a couple of years, with the exception of being 2 degrees more advanced (107 vs 109 ICL, assumably to take advantage of the VVT). If you were to install this in your VVT engine and command it to have 2deg of retard, you would have the same cam specs as the 277LR. This is nice information to have because there are a lot more 277LR cams installed out there and even some magazine articles involving that grind to look at for comparison. For example, this article predicts a healthy 550hp at the crank using the nonVVT version, L92s and flattops on a 6.0: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...t/viewall.html
I have also read reports of low speed driveability sacrifices with the nonVVT 277LR, which the additional 2* advance in the VVT-2 might help with. What that article above points out is the piston-valve clearance with flat tops may be marginal withthe nonVVT cam and I'm sure it can only get worse with the added advance of the VVT-2: definitely check your PTV clearance if you install this cam (or any cam really). The pistons I am using have deeper valve reliefs so I should be safe.
Another note, in the newer catalogs for single bolts cams, there is a 277LrR single bolt cam (146-458-11) which has more exhaust duration and slightly more exhaust lift for the rectangular port heads. The 277LR cam (54-458-11) was designed for cathedral port heads, though the difference is subtle.
Hopefully this helps others trying to make a camshaft choice.
I have also read reports of low speed driveability sacrifices with the nonVVT 277LR, which the additional 2* advance in the VVT-2 might help with. What that article above points out is the piston-valve clearance with flat tops may be marginal withthe nonVVT cam and I'm sure it can only get worse with the added advance of the VVT-2: definitely check your PTV clearance if you install this cam (or any cam really). The pistons I am using have deeper valve reliefs so I should be safe.
Another note, in the newer catalogs for single bolts cams, there is a 277LrR single bolt cam (146-458-11) which has more exhaust duration and slightly more exhaust lift for the rectangular port heads. The 277LR cam (54-458-11) was designed for cathedral port heads, though the difference is subtle.
Hopefully this helps others trying to make a camshaft choice.
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 08-09-2012 at 04:52 PM.
08-09-2012, 04:03 PM
#462
Also camshaft related, I had to return the phaser limiter provided with my camshaft kit because it was the wrong one for my phaser. I have the new style phaser PN 12606358 which requires Comp Cams 5460 limiter and -189 cam core. Texas Speed had sent the correct cam core, but the wrong phaser. I didn't check it until recently (although I did check the core early on!). For reference here is what you need if you are doing a VVT cam swap:
"Old style" Phaser 12585994 uses Phaser Limiter Kit #5456 and cam core -156
"New style" Phaser 12606358 uses Phaser Limiter Kit #5460 and cam core -189
I have had very good service from TSP and I would recommend them for anyone looking for LSx aftermarket parts.
"Old style" Phaser 12585994 uses Phaser Limiter Kit #5456 and cam core -156
"New style" Phaser 12606358 uses Phaser Limiter Kit #5460 and cam core -189
I have had very good service from TSP and I would recommend them for anyone looking for LSx aftermarket parts.
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 08-09-2012 at 04:58 PM.
08-09-2012, 04:56 PM
#463
I was told "after the fact" that I should have requested hard faced rings if I had planned on running nitrous. I mentioned the possibility of the spray prior to the build of the 408 but evidentily it wasn't taken to heart. Not sure if that would apply for your application.
08-09-2012, 06:14 PM
#464
"Texas Speed had sent the correct cam core, but the wrong phaser. I didn't check it until recently (although I did check the core early on!)."
Hahaha. I had just the opposite problem. Right phaser kit but wrong camshaft core. They did correct it though without a problem. I think "all" the sales people at TSP are now up to speed on the issue.
Hahaha. I had just the opposite problem. Right phaser kit but wrong camshaft core. They did correct it though without a problem. I think "all" the sales people at TSP are now up to speed on the issue.
08-09-2012, 10:44 PM
#465
You'll have a healthy setup for sure. Valve reliefs are a must with larger cams, and that's only more prevalent with VVT. I'm running Mahle LS3/L92 relief pistons in my setup.I also gapped the rings on the high side for an NA build expecting to mildly boost/spray in the future. I still wish I went the 408 route though.
Tony, I don't think hard faced rings are a necessity until you start getting serious with the spray. Or are this guy.
edit: clint, regarding your post in tony's thread re: tanks inc nova fuel tank... walbros are good, but for a little more, you can get a stealth 340 juuuuuust in case
of course, you need to make sure your wiring is up to snuff (ask me how I know).
Tony, I don't think hard faced rings are a necessity until you start getting serious with the spray. Or are this guy.
edit: clint, regarding your post in tony's thread re: tanks inc nova fuel tank... walbros are good, but for a little more, you can get a stealth 340 juuuuuust in case
of course, you need to make sure your wiring is up to snuff (ask me how I know).
08-10-2012, 02:48 AM
#466
Tony, I don't think hard faced rings are a necessity until you start getting serious with the spray. Or are this guy.
08-12-2012, 04:09 PM
#468
The Wisecos have a nitrided steel top ring and a pretty good thickness of piston above the top groove. They are advertised as nitrous pistons, but it's not likely I will ever run it. Even if I had a nitrous setup to install, it would probably take me five to ten years to install it.
Minor update: I tackled the subframe with denatured alcohol in a spraybottle and wiping cloths. That worked great for getting the grease and grime off. I followed the scrubbing up with 400 grit sandpaper to rough up the old paint and smooth the transitions between bare metal. Then I cleaned it a few more times with denatures alochol and wiping cloths until they remained white after wiping. Then I masked off an area using natural edges of the frame and covered the area with rattle can automotive primer. Something weird happened in the process on the driver's side. I'm not sure if I didn't give the denatured alcohol enough time to evaporate or if other forces are at work, but you can see some areas around edges and holes turned out gloss black rather than the dull gray of the rest of the frame. Any ideas what may have caused this? I am going to scuff & clean the areas and follow up with another coat of primer before topcoat.
In prep for checking piston to valve clearance, I made a pair of solid lifters by tack welding my old lifters. Keeping the weld out of the pushrod cup area is tricky. and I'm glad I had plenty of old lifters because I ruined a couple.
Lastly, I took some old aluminum bar stock I had laying around and made soft jaws for my vise. I plan to use this for torquing the caps on & off my rods to check the bearing IDs.
I also cleaned up space on the workbench and rearranged the garage to make a new home for the engine stand. The area I had it before had very little room to work so I'm temporarily exchanging places with my welding table and press until the engine is back in the car.
Still lamenting all the money I've burned through and how much is still left, but the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.
Minor update: I tackled the subframe with denatured alcohol in a spraybottle and wiping cloths. That worked great for getting the grease and grime off. I followed the scrubbing up with 400 grit sandpaper to rough up the old paint and smooth the transitions between bare metal. Then I cleaned it a few more times with denatures alochol and wiping cloths until they remained white after wiping. Then I masked off an area using natural edges of the frame and covered the area with rattle can automotive primer. Something weird happened in the process on the driver's side. I'm not sure if I didn't give the denatured alcohol enough time to evaporate or if other forces are at work, but you can see some areas around edges and holes turned out gloss black rather than the dull gray of the rest of the frame. Any ideas what may have caused this? I am going to scuff & clean the areas and follow up with another coat of primer before topcoat.
In prep for checking piston to valve clearance, I made a pair of solid lifters by tack welding my old lifters. Keeping the weld out of the pushrod cup area is tricky. and I'm glad I had plenty of old lifters because I ruined a couple.
Lastly, I took some old aluminum bar stock I had laying around and made soft jaws for my vise. I plan to use this for torquing the caps on & off my rods to check the bearing IDs.
I also cleaned up space on the workbench and rearranged the garage to make a new home for the engine stand. The area I had it before had very little room to work so I'm temporarily exchanging places with my welding table and press until the engine is back in the car.
Still lamenting all the money I've burned through and how much is still left, but the only way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.
09-03-2012, 04:45 PM
#472
Got some color on the subframe this weekend. That was very exciting. First off, last week I recleaned and reprimered the frame. This seemed to take care of most of the weird dark spots, which someone on another forumn suggested was grease/oil wicking out from corners & crevices.
I gave that several days to cure completely because I heard you don't want to topcoat Rustoleum too soon. As it turns out, I still had over a quart of the original Delstar paint I used on the frame twelve years ago, along with some reducer but no hardener. This stuff is no longer legal in California, so I had to pull some strings to bring a half pint of hardener in from out of state. Then I got to work mixing the stuff up at an 8:6:1 ratio (paint:reducer:hardener). I was a bit surprised at how thin it was; almost water consistency, but I did it by the book and that's what I got.
As I was researching guns and thinking about ways to spray this myself, I came across these cool little CO2 cartridge painting guns from Preval. They hold about 150mL of paint and are disposable. Even better - they're cheap at only $4 from my local paint shop.
The first parts to be painted were the frame stands for the engine mounts. I was immediately impressed with how well the Preval sprayer laid it down. It was a lot like using a rattle can only the atomization was much better.
I then moved on to the subframe itself. Here it is after 3 coats of paint.
Before the last coat, I pulled off the masking tape, which gave some room for a feathered edge. This helped a lot with blending. The corners didn't need it, but at the top rear, there was a sharp transition from new paint to old, so the feathering really helped.
Overall I am very happy with the results. It's not perfect, but its pretty darn good. Despite the contrast shown by the photos, it doesn't clash with the older paint and should blend in nicely once covered by all the stuff that goes on top. As for the Preval sprayer, I did have a bit of a glitch midway through the last coat - the sprayer started sticking on, so I had to kinda pull up on the nozzle to get it to stop spraying sometimes. Fortunately I didn't end up with runs anywhere - just kept moving as I figured out the problem.
Here are all my painting supplies. On the far left is about a 1ft square piece of cardboard to use as a mobil mask to prevent overspray. Then the paint, stir stick, reducer/thinner, hardener, mixing cup, and Preval sprayer. I also got some disposable strainer funnels to get any chunks out of the paint, though there weren't any I could see after straining it. Following this, I put the remaining paint into a smaller quart size can.
If my block isn't back from the machine shop this week, I am going to explode!
That's all for now...
I gave that several days to cure completely because I heard you don't want to topcoat Rustoleum too soon. As it turns out, I still had over a quart of the original Delstar paint I used on the frame twelve years ago, along with some reducer but no hardener. This stuff is no longer legal in California, so I had to pull some strings to bring a half pint of hardener in from out of state. Then I got to work mixing the stuff up at an 8:6:1 ratio (paint:reducer:hardener). I was a bit surprised at how thin it was; almost water consistency, but I did it by the book and that's what I got.
As I was researching guns and thinking about ways to spray this myself, I came across these cool little CO2 cartridge painting guns from Preval. They hold about 150mL of paint and are disposable. Even better - they're cheap at only $4 from my local paint shop.
The first parts to be painted were the frame stands for the engine mounts. I was immediately impressed with how well the Preval sprayer laid it down. It was a lot like using a rattle can only the atomization was much better.
I then moved on to the subframe itself. Here it is after 3 coats of paint.
Before the last coat, I pulled off the masking tape, which gave some room for a feathered edge. This helped a lot with blending. The corners didn't need it, but at the top rear, there was a sharp transition from new paint to old, so the feathering really helped.
Overall I am very happy with the results. It's not perfect, but its pretty darn good. Despite the contrast shown by the photos, it doesn't clash with the older paint and should blend in nicely once covered by all the stuff that goes on top. As for the Preval sprayer, I did have a bit of a glitch midway through the last coat - the sprayer started sticking on, so I had to kinda pull up on the nozzle to get it to stop spraying sometimes. Fortunately I didn't end up with runs anywhere - just kept moving as I figured out the problem.
Here are all my painting supplies. On the far left is about a 1ft square piece of cardboard to use as a mobil mask to prevent overspray. Then the paint, stir stick, reducer/thinner, hardener, mixing cup, and Preval sprayer. I also got some disposable strainer funnels to get any chunks out of the paint, though there weren't any I could see after straining it. Following this, I put the remaining paint into a smaller quart size can.
If my block isn't back from the machine shop this week, I am going to explode!
That's all for now...
09-04-2012, 04:59 PM
#476
Thanks guys! I appreciate the kind words
!@#$! Update
I talked to the machine shop today and not only is my block not ready, it's SCRAP METAL!
Apparently the cutting tool came loose while they were boring the cylinders and took a deep cut out of the cylinder wall. Damn it! I could hardly speak to the guy as he gave me the bad news. He said they found a replacement block and started machining it today, but had not confirmed if it was a Gen IV block, so I don't know if it will even work for me AND I have no idea what the history is in terms of mileage etc.
What do people normally do in these situations??? What should I be asking for from the shop?
I am too angry to think clearly.
!@#$! Update
I talked to the machine shop today and not only is my block not ready, it's SCRAP METAL!
Apparently the cutting tool came loose while they were boring the cylinders and took a deep cut out of the cylinder wall. Damn it! I could hardly speak to the guy as he gave me the bad news. He said they found a replacement block and started machining it today, but had not confirmed if it was a Gen IV block, so I don't know if it will even work for me AND I have no idea what the history is in terms of mileage etc.What do people normally do in these situations??? What should I be asking for from the shop?
I am too angry to think clearly.
09-04-2012, 10:25 PM
#479
After settling down a bit, I called the shop and talked to them some more about the issue. I expressed my frustration with the long delays in getting this done and they were appologetic. After some discussion, they determined the block they had to replace it with was not a Gen IV block so now they are hunting for another. I was surpised they didn't know the difference without me telling them, but maybe I was just talking to the wrong guy. Apparently among machine shops they often exchange rebuildable cores in these situations, so that is how they hope to find a replacement. I told them I would also consider aluminum Gen IV blocks like an LS2 or L76 if they come across one. They asked if that is what I would prefer because they would like to make things right with me and I said yes, I think that would be better. We ended the conversation with a promise to call back when they find something so we can figure out how I want to move forward.
Overall I'd say they are doing OK in responding to the problem so far, but I will probably be on edge for a while until I see a finished shortblock on the engine stand. I'll post more as things develop. Thanks for the continued advice.
Overall I'd say they are doing OK in responding to the problem so far, but I will probably be on edge for a while until I see a finished shortblock on the engine stand. I'll post more as things develop. Thanks for the continued advice.
Last edited by -TheBandit-; 09-05-2012 at 01:24 PM.
