kmracer

iTrader: (1)

ah, you were talking about the intake.

mdbreaux

I'll get more pics of the wheel wells when I get back to my computer. As far as Phil, I was just thinking out loud because I don;t fully understand the problem or what I am watching out for. I certainly hope you did not think I was dispensing of your advise or saying anything negative about it or you. I just don't think there is enbough info for me to determine what we are really talking about here. As far as the steam port, I do have the Kurt Urban setup. As far as the air flow and intake setup, I would like to see one that is a better setup so I can at least visualize it. I ain't no expert by far. I welcome any and all suggestions and have no problem learning from others. I can't imagine a better setup without changing the entire intake manifold to a custom one. Phil, if you could refer me to a picture of one or a name of one I would love to see it. Obviously, I do not want to experience problems with my engine if I can avoid them. I just thought that once things are pressurized, the air will travel into the path of least resistance, thus eliminating any issues we are thinking of. Obviously, that is wrong. I would like to at least be more fully aware of the issue and start thinking about it now. All I know right now is that I need to watch my two rear cylinders and it has something to do with my intake elbow or intake manifold and possibly has something to do with leaning or heat, but I am still not 100% sure what to watch for ??? Phil, please feel free to explain and provide me with more info. You threw this out there, and I appreciate that, but I have no idea exactly what I am looking for or trying to correct. I think you got the wrong idea on my post because I was not saying you were wrong, just trying to think out loud about what you were trying to get at. ??? Thanks, Michael

mdbreaux

I may have worded my post wrong also. I was thinking out loud and not saying anything negative about Phil. Phil is in the 7 second club and I haven't even been down the track. I was just thrown a small bit of info about a potential huge problem and left to figure it out. All I know is to watch out for 2, possibly 4, lean cylinders on the rear of the engine and that is is due to a short radius intake elbow, possibly the intake manifold. That amount of info just makes me nervous because I have no idea what to do about it. I welcome any and all suggestions. I would like ot see a picture or reference to a better setup to compare. Phil - I WELCOME your advise and appreciate it. I welcome all suggestions and advice. I do not know it all and do listen and learn from others. Thanks, Michael

mdbreaux

Xfactor, I think I am starting to understand what Phil is talking about from reading your post. I just thought with positive pressure, the air would travel the path of least resistaaance, but s usual, there is much more method to the madness. I just want to see or know of a much better intake setup so I can visualize the good versus the bad. Apparently, I have the bad. All I can visualize is a sheet metal intake. However, I have seen some very bad and ridiculous sheet metal intakes from well known manufacturers, so I just want to see a properly built one and know what else I may need to know about this and any other issue.

98Z28CobraKiller

iTrader: (17)

Love the turbo placement and the use of the puller fan but not sure why you mounted the WG's so far away.

mdbreaux

Just to get them out of the way. Not to mention, they look cool way up there. There is very little room beneath them to run the two 4" exhaust discharge pipes. They kind of needed to be up there. Thanks for the compliment.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

This is hard to word without coming off like an *******

I along with many other LS guys have burned up pistons and broken parts learning and trying to figure out how to make these combinations scream. Its no secret that there are top LS teams that have burned up pistons due to the airflow distribution problems assocated with a Carb style intake manifold. I dont have a problem pointing anyone in the right direction but at some point the information isn't free at this level. All of the top LS builders from Shawn, Kurt , Thompson, ERL and a few others have spent many dollars working on and perfecting the LS series of motors.

My advice is if you intend on making 1500+ and trying to go into the 7s, call ERL and see what they say about airflow distribution and how it effects your setup.

I sincerely understand how important information is and is why I have no problem paying guys like Shawn @ VA Speed and Brian @ Madman and Co for their services/information. In my eyes they are the best of their craft and you surround yourself with the best to be the best. They think outside the box and know how to get things done. I'm in no way saying that they are the only game in town but for my program they are the only guys I call.

You wanna fix airflow distribution...This isn't the only solution, Its the best solution.

mdbreaux

Sweet! Thanks for that. It is difficult to find things like this out there. When I bought the VIctor Jr almost 2 years ago, there weren't many options known to me. That is what Madman and I decided on. I will certainly take a look into this beast of a manifold. I can see the obvious benefits of it.

mdbreaux

Also, that in no way comes off poorly with me. I would rather you just cite my problem and your suggestion solution. I can then at least look into it and be aware of so I can learn from others. I now see exactly what you are referring to. Huge difference in that manifold and mine. When I bought mine, I was only offered a few options and one was unavailable. I was not made aware of this option. It is a very nice setup and I am going to look into it so I can see what is what with cost, etc. and then take it from there. Thanks for that Phil.

mdbreaux

Some pics of the wheel wells being enlarged. I can get a few finished ones if you want.

mdbreaux

I think what Phil and others are trying to tell me, and correct me if I am wrong, is that boost or positive pressure does not make proper airflow dynamics a moot issue. It is equally important to get proper airflow with boost as with a naturally aspirated setup. All boost does is compress the air and make it more denser. Otherwise, if you have an airflow restriction or air flow issue, it will exist with or without boost. Furthermore, my intake manifold coupled with my intake elbow has proven to be an issue with the rear two pistons becuase they do not get sufficient air. I would suspect that they would not run lean, since the injectors will still provide them with sufficient fuel, but the pistons are devoid of cold air, which most lilely causes them to run very hot. This is a summary of my thoughts on this. Obviously, with high boost (30 psi), this becomes a magnified problem. Rather than keeping an eye on it, I would rather correct it. I rather follow others and not try to re-invent the wheel so to speak because I am trying to make a fast and fun car and not a car on the cuting edge, as I am racing for fun and not competitively. That is too time consuming and expensive for me. I just want to have fun and push my car to the limits I enjoy doing. I a currently looking into Phil's suggestion for the intake manifold. I certainly do not need to burn up two pistons and cause any damage to my engine if I can prevent it. Thanks Phil!

Frans96SS

iTrader: (15)

I remember this car... You bought it from my buddy jordan who used to work for me.

mdbreaux

Frans96SS - you are correct. The car has come a long way. Coming right opn 4 years. It was so totally unstreetable with 1000 ft lb torque. The twin scroll setup certainly did its job. I am hoping to get it on the track soon, definitely by summers end. The car is really a sweet car. It weighed about 3,000 with me in it and the 6.0 iron block. I have shed over 100 lb with the new aluminum block, but will add some with the water intercooler in the front. Stay in touch with this thread and I will get some final pics and videos posted once it goes down the track. It became a Madman project after I decided to remove it from the street before I killed myself.

mdbreaux

If it makes any difference, my Victor manifold is heavily ported and polished. Phil, if you are out there, what am I looking for on the rear cylinders - heat?? I could install some bungs and check heat on them or a/f ratio on them. I would think heat becuase they should run rich if they are not getting sufficient air flow. I may have to run it with this manifold for a while depending on cost factors with Marcella. I could run a probe on them and keep an eye on them. I do have coated Diamond turbo pistons, so that may help and potential heat damage. I also do have a plenum, which is about 1-1/2" thick and could easily ad another one to increase the plenum if that may help some for now. ?? Gotta love bandaids.

mdbreaux

I spoke with John Marcella this morning and he is a great guy. I now know exactly what Phil was trying to communicate to me. The carburetor style manifolds, like the VIctor Jr, coupled with the intake elbow can provide very uneven air flow distribution among the cylinders. With my intake elbow facing forward, the air will flow like crazy into the rear two cylinders and then less into the next two forward cylinders and then very poorly into the front cylinders. This will cause an extremely lean issue with the rear cylinders. The only way to catch it is to have pyrometers on each cylinder so you can see them heating up. Otherwise, there are some bandaids you can do, which I will not get into here. His manifold, pictured above from Phil, is a solution to the problem. I am ordering one and will eventually put it on when it is built. Until then, I do have some temporary fixes he gave me so that I can still run my car. Thanks Phil and John Marcella. Saved me an engine.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

LSmonster

iTrader: (2)

I'd be curious to hear what the percentage split is from cylinder to cylinder with carb style intakes using 4150 or 4500 4 barrel throttle body... I'd be willing to bet it's a lot closer than the same style intakes with a elbow and a 90+mm mono blade throttle body.

TracyRR

iTrader: (8)

Wow! Great intake, I wish i could fit that exact intake under my hood!! In my humble opinion, phil is the real deal and a huge asset to this forum! He has helped me plenty

mdbreaux

LS Monster, I would be interested to see as well. From talking to John Marcella, the issue has to do with the intake elbow directing flow directly towards the rear cylinders. Of course, this is probably magnified in a boosted application. However, even with the car style TB, you would have to elbow the compressed air flow so I am not sure. If the Tb is facing rear, like some do when placing the intercooler inside the car, then I believe the front cylinders get all the air. John said it is extremely bad. On a bench flow, the rear cylinders air flow could knowck a brick off the table and the front cylinders could barely blow out a candle. He gave the the percentage of differences in air flow. The unfortunate issue is that if you want John to build you an intake, you better be prepared to put down a deposit and wait a while. I'm not going to say how long, but it takes a while. He is very busy, but has all the time to talk to you. Great guy! You could go with a Beck intake. I am thinking about it. It would take a fraction of the time. If I go with John, which I am most likely going to do, I will place a 2" carb spacer underneath my intake. That is my own idea to try to get the air some more time to direct down and not at an angle towards the back. It is only $50 from WIlson Manifolds along with some longer carb studs. Hell, I may even try to add another inch or two and make it 3 or 4". I think I'll have the room. John told me how to adjust the injectors to compensate and now burn up the pistons for now. I may put EGT probes on each clyinder to keep a data log of the temp also. It will be a while before getting the Marcella intake. I guess the positive thing about the time it takes is it gives you time to pay slowly each montha nd get it paid off. That is beneficial for those who can't smack down the entire amount all at once, like me.

mdbreaux

Here is a thread with a long discussion about this issue and the manifolds already out there and the ones coming out. https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...induction.html Shawn from VA SPeed says the 4 barel TB makes a big difference as does a 3" spacer with 4 holes in it. Maybe I'll temporarily fix my problem with a 3 " spacer with 4 holes in it.