Polluter cam for me???
06-26-2009, 07:34 AM
#61
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This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
So what should we go by? Dyno numbers that can be easily faked? Lean out the car, take out the air filter, pump up the rear tires to 45PSI, put the dyno weather station right next to the exhaust to simulate a hotter enfironment than it really is... are you ******* kiding me?
Track times are the only true test of a cam's performance..
I personally don't give a crap what kind of numbers an LS1 makes under 3000 or even 4000 rpms. If I want to pass somebody I'll grab a gear. If I'm racing someone from a roll it probably won't dip below 5,000 rpms. And If I'm at the track I leave the line at 7,000 rpms. When you're cruising along part throttle during 95% of your street driving, how much hp and torque do you even think it takes to keep that car rolling down the road anyway?
Could not agree with you more Jonathan! 
06-27-2009, 02:13 AM
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Well... I'm impressed too. I don't like farming out spec jobs because I'm a "If you don't do it yourself, you don't learn nothin'" kinda guy. But if I were you, and you really want a cam that will do exactly what you want it to do, I'd have either PredatorZ or PatG spec that cam for your car. It might be pricey. But it will do what you want it to do, and you'll only have to pay for it once. Otherwise, I think you'll end up going through a bunch of off the shelf cams before settling on one that will be a compromise for you.
That's my honest advice, all pride and bullshit aside.
I'm leaning towards what the Manalishi is saying too. Life and daily drivers for most of us aren't about 7000rpm launches and 5000 rpm all day long. Our cars have to do double and triple duty most of the time. I'm not trying to shell out my drivetrain from every stoplight either. I AM down for a DEPENDABLE 600+rwhp (and the lower in the rpm band that happens, the happier I'll be). But I want to balance that with having a dependable car and good drivability. And I KNOW for a fact that with our LSX engines its not asking too much. Maybe a hefty cash outlay and a lot of study & wrench time, but not out of bounds of expectancy.
My questions for Jonathan@Ticks are: Can the Polluter cam be DD with a big inch engine (say, 427cid), the expected supporting mods, and 3.42/3.73 gears in an M6 car? Where would the size of the engine put the powerband? Running LS7 or LS3 heads require 1.8 rockers on the exhaust side to compensate intake/exhaust ratio issues with these heads? And for the 346cid crew: Is it possible for the Polluter be tuned in for DD duty (as most of us see it) or is it hopelessly a drag cam? ... I could even live with "tuned in for street/strip" use. lol
That's my honest advice, all pride and bullshit aside.
I'm leaning towards what the Manalishi is saying too. Life and daily drivers for most of us aren't about 7000rpm launches and 5000 rpm all day long. Our cars have to do double and triple duty most of the time. I'm not trying to shell out my drivetrain from every stoplight either. I AM down for a DEPENDABLE 600+rwhp (and the lower in the rpm band that happens, the happier I'll be). But I want to balance that with having a dependable car and good drivability. And I KNOW for a fact that with our LSX engines its not asking too much. Maybe a hefty cash outlay and a lot of study & wrench time, but not out of bounds of expectancy.
My questions for Jonathan@Ticks are: Can the Polluter cam be DD with a big inch engine (say, 427cid), the expected supporting mods, and 3.42/3.73 gears in an M6 car? Where would the size of the engine put the powerband? Running LS7 or LS3 heads require 1.8 rockers on the exhaust side to compensate intake/exhaust ratio issues with these heads? And for the 346cid crew: Is it possible for the Polluter be tuned in for DD duty (as most of us see it) or is it hopelessly a drag cam? ... I could even live with "tuned in for street/strip" use. lol
427 ci would eat this cam up and it would drive great. and as far as the 346 crew..... i'll just put it like this. The silver car in my sig is a head and cam car (f13) with all the supporting mods and the driveability is fine but it isnt as good as blownws6's car with the polluter. my car will get to bucking going across a parking lot at around 7-10 mph and i will have to put the clutch in and start over. brians car drives great... it is all in the tune. His car pulls like a freight train up top and in 6th gear it will cruise along fine at highway speeds. My car also is fine on the highway but its the real slow speeds that get mine acting stupid, oh and my cam is alot smaller than the polluter. We both have the same gear ratio as well.
06-27-2009, 02:17 AM
#63
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Don't go by track numbers any cam can go fast with a good setup???
This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
So what should we go by? Dyno numbers that can be easily faked? Lean out the car, take out the air filter, pump up the rear tires to 45PSI, put the dyno weather station right next to the exhaust to simulate a hotter enfironment than it really is... are you ******* kiding me?
Track times are the only true test of a cam's performance..
Could not agree with you more Jonathan!
This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
So what should we go by? Dyno numbers that can be easily faked? Lean out the car, take out the air filter, pump up the rear tires to 45PSI, put the dyno weather station right next to the exhaust to simulate a hotter enfironment than it really is... are you ******* kiding me?
Track times are the only true test of a cam's performance..
Could not agree with you more Jonathan!
oh and for some track numbers, there is a local guy here running a polluter cam only ,carburated 6.0 set up in his regal and it is running 6.70's @over 100mph. that speaks for itself.
06-27-2009, 10:09 AM
#64
Don't go by track numbers any cam can go fast with a good setup???
This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
So what should we go by? Dyno numbers that can be easily faked? Lean out the car, take out the air filter, pump up the rear tires to 45PSI, put the dyno weather station right next to the exhaust to simulate a hotter enfironment than it really is... are you ******* kiding me?
Track times are the only true test of a cam's performance..
Could not agree with you more Jonathan!
This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard...
So what should we go by? Dyno numbers that can be easily faked? Lean out the car, take out the air filter, pump up the rear tires to 45PSI, put the dyno weather station right next to the exhaust to simulate a hotter enfironment than it really is... are you ******* kiding me?
Track times are the only true test of a cam's performance..
Could not agree with you more Jonathan!What is the title of this thread...
What is the cam that will give me the best track numbers?...NO
What cam will give me the ultimate track car?...NO
The title is "Polluter cam for me?" It is going in a DAILY DRIVER...
If you go by track times yes the polluter is going to be on top...If you go by dyno numbers (hp) yes the polluter will most likely win again...So now the polluter has won both, what is the OP going to think well this is the cam for me...
The biggest is not always the best...And if the OP just goes by track times and Dyno numbers he will not see that...There is a difference of how a 224/224 cam drives on the street vs. a 242/244...
makes sense now...
06-27-2009, 10:53 AM
#65
TECH Senior Member
Also let us not forget the intial OP mod list:
373 gears
long tube headers,y pipe
magnaflow catback
lid, smooth bellow
all free mods
6spd
suspension work
dyno tune,150 wet shot
So the criteria of cam choice should match the mods, unless the OP is willing and UNDERSTANDS that he will need to add more mods to handle such a big cam
Lower gears (4.11 or 4.56)
Clutch
at least LS6 intake (90/90 prefered)
Because with his mods he will not come on top at the track with Polluter, I garantee that with the mods he has (especialy no strong differential).
So Chrs1313 makes plenty sense to say what he said. To still answer the initial Q by 1st post (Blubyu02).
Is Polluter (or any cam that size) for you?
The answer is NO, unless you UNDERSTAND and are willing to mod your car further to reach a level of proper support for that cam, so it can perform like it is designed to do.
Otherwise it will just never reach the potential it can dish out and your car will perform poorly.
That is the whole point of my comments in here (not that the Polluter is bad), I hope poeple understand that.
373 gears
long tube headers,y pipe
magnaflow catback
lid, smooth bellow
all free mods
6spd
suspension work
dyno tune,150 wet shot
So the criteria of cam choice should match the mods, unless the OP is willing and UNDERSTANDS that he will need to add more mods to handle such a big cam
Lower gears (4.11 or 4.56)
Clutch
at least LS6 intake (90/90 prefered)
Because with his mods he will not come on top at the track with Polluter, I garantee that with the mods he has (especialy no strong differential).
So Chrs1313 makes plenty sense to say what he said. To still answer the initial Q by 1st post (Blubyu02).
Is Polluter (or any cam that size) for you?
The answer is NO, unless you UNDERSTAND and are willing to mod your car further to reach a level of proper support for that cam, so it can perform like it is designed to do.
Otherwise it will just never reach the potential it can dish out and your car will perform poorly.
That is the whole point of my comments in here (not that the Polluter is bad), I hope poeple understand that.
06-27-2009, 01:21 PM
#66
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Also let us not forget the intial OP mod list:
373 gears
long tube headers,y pipe
magnaflow catback
lid, smooth bellow
all free mods
6spd
suspension work
dyno tune,150 wet shot
So the criteria of cam choice should match the mods, unless the OP is willing and UNDERSTANDS that he will need to add more mods to handle such a big cam
Lower gears (4.11 or 4.56)
Clutch
at least LS6 intake (90/90 prefered)
Because with his mods he will not come on top at the track with Polluter, I garantee that with the mods he has (especialy no strong differential).
So Chrs1313 makes plenty sense to say what he said. To still answer the initial Q by 1st post (Blubyu02).
Is Polluter (or any cam that size) for you?
The answer is NO, unless you UNDERSTAND and are willing to mod your car further to reach a level of proper support for that cam, so it can perform like it is designed to do.
Otherwise it will just never reach the potential it can dish out and your car will perform poorly.
That is the whole point of my comments in here (not that the Polluter is bad), I hope poeple understand that.
373 gears
long tube headers,y pipe
magnaflow catback
lid, smooth bellow
all free mods
6spd
suspension work
dyno tune,150 wet shot
So the criteria of cam choice should match the mods, unless the OP is willing and UNDERSTANDS that he will need to add more mods to handle such a big cam
Lower gears (4.11 or 4.56)
Clutch
at least LS6 intake (90/90 prefered)
Because with his mods he will not come on top at the track with Polluter, I garantee that with the mods he has (especialy no strong differential).
So Chrs1313 makes plenty sense to say what he said. To still answer the initial Q by 1st post (Blubyu02).
Is Polluter (or any cam that size) for you?
The answer is NO, unless you UNDERSTAND and are willing to mod your car further to reach a level of proper support for that cam, so it can perform like it is designed to do.
Otherwise it will just never reach the potential it can dish out and your car will perform poorly.
That is the whole point of my comments in here (not that the Polluter is bad), I hope poeple understand that.
Looking back at the cam specs, I'm thinking that 1.8 rockers would definately take the lift over the edge with the Polluter.. making that a stupid question.
06-27-2009, 03:19 PM
#67
TECH Senior Member
The ramps of XE-R lobes are too agressive to handle higher rocker ratio. Valvetrain instability is going to be the issue and can be disastrous.
When you posted earlier, 1 of the characteristic of the polluter that attracted you was the way it sounds. Well you can get the same results from a smaller cam, that fits more in your range. All you need to do is run similar overlap (or close to it but still advantageous to your powerband)
Something like 231/235 .617/.621 110+1 LSA
13* Overlap
When you posted earlier, 1 of the characteristic of the polluter that attracted you was the way it sounds. Well you can get the same results from a smaller cam, that fits more in your range. All you need to do is run similar overlap (or close to it but still advantageous to your powerband)
Something like 231/235 .617/.621 110+1 LSA
13* Overlap
06-27-2009, 05:16 PM
#68
Last edited by chrs1313; 06-28-2009 at 01:22 AM.
06-28-2009, 01:08 AM
#69
So lets say i go with a smaller cam and make less horsepower but however more tq, and better driveability, would my car be faster mod for mod besides cam?
Or how about i went ahead and went with the polluter are yall saying that my car will not perform to the best of its ability simply because i do not have 410 gears? Im kinda of lost when it comes to gearing and cams. I know an engine has to have airflow to breath ie intake. I am going with the ls6 intake but the gears kinda lost me.
Or how about i went ahead and went with the polluter are yall saying that my car will not perform to the best of its ability simply because i do not have 410 gears? Im kinda of lost when it comes to gearing and cams. I know an engine has to have airflow to breath ie intake. I am going with the ls6 intake but the gears kinda lost me.
06-28-2009, 03:59 AM
#70
TECH Senior Member
Even the LS6 is the MINIMUM and it would actualy benefit greatly from 90/90 or 92/92
short gears to get you more quicly into the band "the area" that this cam starts to dishout power "4500 in this case"
and a clutch to handle the trq unloaded at such high rpm.
Ok picture yourself with street tires at a stop light. Some guy/gal comes next to you and tease you with a couple of revs. Now you got to show that person what she can do.
You clutch in, get the rpms 5000+ to get into your powerband and it turns green. You unload all that power and what happens? You sit there while you go into a wild tire smoking burnout.
Solution you have to hook.
Ok how are you going to do that? Either you have some sticky tires (with proper suspention geometry) or you are going to have to reduce rpm launch (you need to actualy move forward).
With this cam you'll then be way low in the powerband, so you will neither be producing trq which accelerates you nor have you reached your peak rpm band.
Results you get walked by the other car, the guy/gal has a smurk on his face, you have just been owned.
Second scenario: you are on the highway doing 55 mph, along comes another homey and does a short spurt/back off tease, so you think, Hmmm this guy want to play, I'l show him.
Beep/beep/beep and you downshift, car lurches forward but seems to take forever to get moving! Why, you have a big cam, you are in its powerband above 4500 rpm! What is the deal?
Well your clutch is slipping, your motor is unnable to absorb enough air and your gears are still too long.
Darn you get walked again.
Bottom line, (take it from someone that has done it thousands of times) you need to have the proper supporting mods to get in the powerband of that cam and to collect/distribute that power.
I keep repeating the same old thing, this is getting a bit old.
3rd scenario: You do as you wish and find out for yourself
short gears to get you more quicly into the band "the area" that this cam starts to dishout power "4500 in this case"
and a clutch to handle the trq unloaded at such high rpm.
Ok picture yourself with street tires at a stop light. Some guy/gal comes next to you and tease you with a couple of revs. Now you got to show that person what she can do.
You clutch in, get the rpms 5000+ to get into your powerband and it turns green. You unload all that power and what happens? You sit there while you go into a wild tire smoking burnout.
Solution you have to hook.
Ok how are you going to do that? Either you have some sticky tires (with proper suspention geometry) or you are going to have to reduce rpm launch (you need to actualy move forward).
With this cam you'll then be way low in the powerband, so you will neither be producing trq which accelerates you nor have you reached your peak rpm band.
Results you get walked by the other car, the guy/gal has a smurk on his face, you have just been owned.
Second scenario: you are on the highway doing 55 mph, along comes another homey and does a short spurt/back off tease, so you think, Hmmm this guy want to play, I'l show him.
Beep/beep/beep and you downshift, car lurches forward but seems to take forever to get moving! Why, you have a big cam, you are in its powerband above 4500 rpm! What is the deal?
Well your clutch is slipping, your motor is unnable to absorb enough air and your gears are still too long.
Darn you get walked again.
Bottom line, (take it from someone that has done it thousands of times) you need to have the proper supporting mods to get in the powerband of that cam and to collect/distribute that power.
I keep repeating the same old thing, this is getting a bit old.
3rd scenario: You do as you wish and find out for yourself
06-28-2009, 10:22 AM
#71
Predator you are the man, and sorry if i ask alot of questions haha just trying to learn the basics i really dont want to be that guy with a car that sounds great but runs poorly all because i didnt listen. you have explained alot that has made alot of sense to me thanks. Later in life if i was ever to go with a track only monster i would surely go with the polluter but for now i dont plan on changing my gears or going with a fast 90/90 or for that fact anything else just cam and intake for this car. thanks again everyone for yalls info and opinion
06-28-2009, 11:11 AM
#72
^ like i said you can always make a mid size cam go fast too, so why change all your supporting mods to just gain the extra 10-15rwhp...i mean i have posts where my ram air gave me 2.5mph or 25rwhp over a stock setup...so you can have your cake and eat it too in a daily driver, and if you dont wanna lose the a/c like my car's ram air is there is always the Sux2bu mod, or FTRA...you can always do those to get that power you might be giving up with a bigger cam...plus you will be gaining the drivability down low with added tq...
good luck on your decision, take it all in from both sides and decide what you think is right for you and your future goals...
Chris
good luck on your decision, take it all in from both sides and decide what you think is right for you and your future goals...
Chris
06-28-2009, 12:52 PM
#73
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Even the LS6 is the MINIMUM and it would actualy benefit greatly from 90/90 or 92/92
short gears to get you more quicly into the band "the area" that this cam starts to dishout power "4500 in this case"
and a clutch to handle the trq unloaded at such high rpm.
Ok picture yourself with street tires at a stop light. Some guy/gal comes next to you and tease you with a couple of revs. Now you got to show that person what she can do.
You clutch in, get the rpms 5000+ to get into your powerband and it turns green. You unload all that power and what happens? You sit there while you go into a wild tire smoking burnout.
Solution you have to hook.
Ok how are you going to do that? Either you have some sticky tires (with proper suspention geometry) or you are going to have to reduce rpm launch (you need to actualy move forward).
With this cam you'll then be way low in the powerband, so you will neither be producing trq which accelerates you nor have you reached your peak rpm band.
Results you get walked by the other car, the guy/gal has a smurk on his face, you have just been owned.
Second scenario: you are on the highway doing 55 mph, along comes another homey and does a short spurt/back off tease, so you think, Hmmm this guy want to play, I'l show him.
Beep/beep/beep and you downshift, car lurches forward but seems to take forever to get moving! Why, you have a big cam, you are in its powerband above 4500 rpm! What is the deal?
Well your clutch is slipping, your motor is unnable to absorb enough air and your gears are still too long.
Darn you get walked again.
Bottom line, (take it from someone that has done it thousands of times) you need to have the proper supporting mods to get in the powerband of that cam and to collect/distribute that power.
I keep repeating the same old thing, this is getting a bit old.
3rd scenario: You do as you wish and find out for yourself
short gears to get you more quicly into the band "the area" that this cam starts to dishout power "4500 in this case"
and a clutch to handle the trq unloaded at such high rpm.
Ok picture yourself with street tires at a stop light. Some guy/gal comes next to you and tease you with a couple of revs. Now you got to show that person what she can do.
You clutch in, get the rpms 5000+ to get into your powerband and it turns green. You unload all that power and what happens? You sit there while you go into a wild tire smoking burnout.
Solution you have to hook.
Ok how are you going to do that? Either you have some sticky tires (with proper suspention geometry) or you are going to have to reduce rpm launch (you need to actualy move forward).
With this cam you'll then be way low in the powerband, so you will neither be producing trq which accelerates you nor have you reached your peak rpm band.
Results you get walked by the other car, the guy/gal has a smurk on his face, you have just been owned.
Second scenario: you are on the highway doing 55 mph, along comes another homey and does a short spurt/back off tease, so you think, Hmmm this guy want to play, I'l show him.
Beep/beep/beep and you downshift, car lurches forward but seems to take forever to get moving! Why, you have a big cam, you are in its powerband above 4500 rpm! What is the deal?
Well your clutch is slipping, your motor is unnable to absorb enough air and your gears are still too long.
Darn you get walked again.
Bottom line, (take it from someone that has done it thousands of times) you need to have the proper supporting mods to get in the powerband of that cam and to collect/distribute that power.
I keep repeating the same old thing, this is getting a bit old.
3rd scenario: You do as you wish and find out for yourself
My best advice to blubyu02, aside from some solid cam specing, is to first decide exactly what you want rwhp/torque-wise, decide exactly where in the powerband you want this to happen, and then plan the easiest, cheapest, and most durable way to get the car to that point. "Trust" said in a post once that it is a good idea to plan your mods from the suspension on up. I'm kinda leaning that way too.
