EMC similar format with *New info & products*
10-28-2019, 11:00 AM
#301
TECH Senior Member
10-28-2019, 12:38 PM
#303
Smoking is Legal! Lol!
Only a misdemeanor in all states that it's not legal for sale. Btw don't care if it is or isn't
Again misdemeanor. That ole stuff was another life and style of living.
It's a Beautiful day in Houston. Hoping it's this Beautiful if the Astros win the WS. My Custom 21spd mountain bike with 10 spd wheels would be nice to put on the front of the bus, get to downtown Houston & ríde around with the parade. U no..... Smoke also and stop by a few shops (make some new friends) well known burger joint I've never stopped by..Munchies.
Day planner. If we win? Again it's a beautiful day!
Only a misdemeanor in all states that it's not legal for sale. Btw don't care if it is or isn't
Again misdemeanor. That ole stuff was another life and style of living.
It's a Beautiful day in Houston. Hoping it's this Beautiful if the Astros win the WS. My Custom 21spd mountain bike with 10 spd wheels would be nice to put on the front of the bus, get to downtown Houston & ríde around with the parade. U no..... Smoke also and stop by a few shops (make some new friends) well known burger joint I've never stopped by..Munchies.
Day planner. If we win? Again it's a beautiful day!
11-03-2019, 07:39 PM
#306
You have to be a member to get into this section of Speedtalk...so I copied.... Darin answers ?'s
Stain Weiss yeah...asks
Darin,
How or would that change with DI?
Darin
UhOh,, You did it now. You got me up on my soapbox so get ready to do some reading. This issue has angered me for many years. Here it goes..
There is plenty of room for R&D in this area but, DI has some serious issues! Of and by itself, its a wonderful fuel management system and it has great promise for the future charge stratification combustion. Nothing wrong with DI of and by itself. When used it in conjunction with (EGR) retarded cam timing to reburn exhaust gases , you get a total fricken disaster of monumental proportions. Disaster I say! These OEMs are retarding the cams 20-30+ degrees in order to reburn exhaust gases during cruise. During CRUZE! How stupid is this you ask? Well, from an engineering perspective its just monumentally stupid especially from a financial aspect.
Its tantamount to running your engine so far out of tune that it carbons up everything, fouls the plugs, contaminates the crankcase, reduces engine life and increase and increases both maintenance schedule and cost. Of course this is not what actually happens, but what actually happens is just as bad.
These OEM DI engines retard the cams and recirculate the very hot exhaust gases full of soot particulates and a sparse amount of contaminated but unburned fuel. This EGR increases fuel economy by about 1 mile to the gallon or maybe more. This is a manipulation in tuning in order to conform to, and satisfy the out of control CAFE standards. The effect of this manipulation in tuning has DIRE consequences for both power and,,, fuel economy! Over time this "out of tune" EGR situation cokes up the valves and shuts off the air flow into the engine. If you run a DI engine for 20000 miles, you will have reduced power due to the valves being coked up and shutting of the air flow into the engine. Its not uncommon at all to see 10-20%+ power loss after 30000 miles!. After 30000 mile, fuel economy suffers as well. That's nonsensical at best. Your instigating a situation to increase fuel economy but that very situation causes decreased fuel economy for more than half of the life of the vehicle. Valve Coking not only shuts off the air flow after 15000-20000 miles, its reduces the longevity of the engine over all. Now, does that sound like common sense engineering. Not in your wildest dreams would you or I ever design an engine that did this. If you did, I would venture to say the great majority of people would call you a monumental dumbass for doing something that stupid.
Now for the most nonsensical part of this ordeal., This situation is "false economy". This is going to make you mad,,,, I hope.
Modern DI engines utilize EGR for increased fuel economy. This results is coked valves that shut off air flow to the engine greatly reducing power and eventually affecting the very fuel economy it was supposed to help. Now for the "false economy" part of this diatribe. If you drive the car for 100000 miles at an average of 29 miles to the gallon you will use about 3448 galls of fuel. With EGR active you will use about 3225 gallons of fuel at the very best. You save about 223 gallons of gas. At 3.50 a gallon your cost saving over 100000 miles will come to about $780.00. That's not a lot of saving per individual. The grand scheme of all this is to save about 9 million barrels of fuel every year in the US. At what cost though? What does this actually cost the consumer. Over the life of the vehicle it will cost you about $4000.00. Why, because you have to take your vehicle into the dealer and get the coked valves blasted clean at a cost of $1200,00 every 3000 miles. Every 50000 at the very least. That's right, they have to pull the intake and BLAST the coked valves clean using crushed nut shells as an abrasive. This is what OEMs now call, " Routine maintenance". Routine for any DI engine that is. By implementing EGR they have made the consumer pay dearly!
Bet they didn't tell you that when you purchased your new Corvette with the LT1 DI engine, did they.
I purchased Chevy Cruze for a back and forth work vehicle last moth. Cheap car with great fuel economy and a peppy turbo 4 banger. I have heads off some of these engine in the shop. I see what happens to the ports and valves after only 15000 miles. After about 15000-2000 miles the port cross section is reduced by 20-30%! The VERY first thing I did was tune the cams to standard positioning and take all the EGR out of the system. You can tune the cam position with EFI live or HPTuners as I do. Its very simple. I have tuned the engine relative to load and engine speed. It gives me plenty of latitude to tune the power curve as I like it. It allows one to keep the cams at 2-3 advanced and retard the cam timing as engine speed increases for a broad power curve. It also allows me to tune out that 28 degrees EGR retard. The engine is much happier operating in a tuned situation. How would have thunk it.....
You can find articles on this issue all over the net.
EXCELLENT ARTICLE ABOUT THIS HERE.
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/0 ... -deposits/
Stain Weiss yeah...asks
Darin,
How or would that change with DI?
Darin
UhOh,, You did it now. You got me up on my soapbox so get ready to do some reading. This issue has angered me for many years. Here it goes..
There is plenty of room for R&D in this area but, DI has some serious issues! Of and by itself, its a wonderful fuel management system and it has great promise for the future charge stratification combustion. Nothing wrong with DI of and by itself. When used it in conjunction with (EGR) retarded cam timing to reburn exhaust gases , you get a total fricken disaster of monumental proportions. Disaster I say! These OEMs are retarding the cams 20-30+ degrees in order to reburn exhaust gases during cruise. During CRUZE! How stupid is this you ask? Well, from an engineering perspective its just monumentally stupid especially from a financial aspect.
Its tantamount to running your engine so far out of tune that it carbons up everything, fouls the plugs, contaminates the crankcase, reduces engine life and increase and increases both maintenance schedule and cost. Of course this is not what actually happens, but what actually happens is just as bad.
These OEM DI engines retard the cams and recirculate the very hot exhaust gases full of soot particulates and a sparse amount of contaminated but unburned fuel. This EGR increases fuel economy by about 1 mile to the gallon or maybe more. This is a manipulation in tuning in order to conform to, and satisfy the out of control CAFE standards. The effect of this manipulation in tuning has DIRE consequences for both power and,,, fuel economy! Over time this "out of tune" EGR situation cokes up the valves and shuts off the air flow into the engine. If you run a DI engine for 20000 miles, you will have reduced power due to the valves being coked up and shutting of the air flow into the engine. Its not uncommon at all to see 10-20%+ power loss after 30000 miles!. After 30000 mile, fuel economy suffers as well. That's nonsensical at best. Your instigating a situation to increase fuel economy but that very situation causes decreased fuel economy for more than half of the life of the vehicle. Valve Coking not only shuts off the air flow after 15000-20000 miles, its reduces the longevity of the engine over all. Now, does that sound like common sense engineering. Not in your wildest dreams would you or I ever design an engine that did this. If you did, I would venture to say the great majority of people would call you a monumental dumbass for doing something that stupid.
Now for the most nonsensical part of this ordeal., This situation is "false economy". This is going to make you mad,,,, I hope.
Modern DI engines utilize EGR for increased fuel economy. This results is coked valves that shut off air flow to the engine greatly reducing power and eventually affecting the very fuel economy it was supposed to help. Now for the "false economy" part of this diatribe. If you drive the car for 100000 miles at an average of 29 miles to the gallon you will use about 3448 galls of fuel. With EGR active you will use about 3225 gallons of fuel at the very best. You save about 223 gallons of gas. At 3.50 a gallon your cost saving over 100000 miles will come to about $780.00. That's not a lot of saving per individual. The grand scheme of all this is to save about 9 million barrels of fuel every year in the US. At what cost though? What does this actually cost the consumer. Over the life of the vehicle it will cost you about $4000.00. Why, because you have to take your vehicle into the dealer and get the coked valves blasted clean at a cost of $1200,00 every 3000 miles. Every 50000 at the very least. That's right, they have to pull the intake and BLAST the coked valves clean using crushed nut shells as an abrasive. This is what OEMs now call, " Routine maintenance". Routine for any DI engine that is. By implementing EGR they have made the consumer pay dearly!
Bet they didn't tell you that when you purchased your new Corvette with the LT1 DI engine, did they.
I purchased Chevy Cruze for a back and forth work vehicle last moth. Cheap car with great fuel economy and a peppy turbo 4 banger. I have heads off some of these engine in the shop. I see what happens to the ports and valves after only 15000 miles. After about 15000-2000 miles the port cross section is reduced by 20-30%! The VERY first thing I did was tune the cams to standard positioning and take all the EGR out of the system. You can tune the cam position with EFI live or HPTuners as I do. Its very simple. I have tuned the engine relative to load and engine speed. It gives me plenty of latitude to tune the power curve as I like it. It allows one to keep the cams at 2-3 advanced and retard the cam timing as engine speed increases for a broad power curve. It also allows me to tune out that 28 degrees EGR retard. The engine is much happier operating in a tuned situation. How would have thunk it.....
You can find articles on this issue all over the net.
EXCELLENT ARTICLE ABOUT THIS HERE.
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/0 ... -deposits/
11-03-2019, 07:43 PM
#307
Original ? .....
Shape of port side of valve?
I've never done any porting or other head work; it really isn't my area.
On these and other forums people are often talking about the fine details of porting and flow and lift and what shape works best. I have never though seen any discussion about the back side of the valve, the curve from the stem to the edge. This shape must have an influence on the flow but nobody, it seems, talks about altering that shape. Why is that?
Darin:
The shape or, " Back angle" and "stem radius", in conjunction with the seat and back cut angles all work together in order to "TUNE" the (seat-throat-chamber) portion of the intake tract. The most important area ANYWHERE in the intake tract.
What we have found is that valves used for 30-45 degree seats in conjunction with cams over .700 lift, tune up best with a 12 degree back angle, 3/8 stem radius and seats back cut angles at .080 to .090 wide. For low lift cams .600 or under the venturi tunes up best with a 10 degree back angle, 3/8 stem radius and .090-.100 wide seat back cut width. WIDE back cuts are not only necessary, they are worth about 10-15 hp if done properly! I have not only seen it, I have proven it to people hundreds of times. The widths of those angles helps " tune up" the venturi. That's right, you can have an extra 10-15 hp if you just back cut your valves correctly. That's if the valves came with no back cut to start with of course.
Back angles greater than 12 degrees are primarily used on the exhaust but in some instances, they are used in the intake. For instance, short port hemis like the Top Fuel heads and the old 426 Chryslers all tune up best with 15-21 degree back angles and 1/2 radius because it's more of what we call a "line of sight" port. Some 4 valve heads have intake valves with back angles greater than 12 because they too are more of a line of sight port. So there are rare instances where the intake valve can have a back angle greater than 12 but again, those are special circumstances. Back angles greater than 12 on ANY Wedge or canted valve heads is out of the question. Don't even try it its a total disaster! I have seen a 10hp drop going from 12 to 14 degrees. I have also seen power drop going from 12 degrees to 10 degrees with high lift cams.
We are talking about "TUNING" the venturi section. The all important ( Seat-Throat_ chamber_) area. You know,,, That area that's more important than anywhere else in the induction system. That area where the air must make the greatest directional change at the highest air speed. This area is critically sensitive to change. Very small changes can have profound effects on the flow curve both static on the bench and, even worse, where you cant see it. Dynamically in the running engine. We cant see everything on the bench. Much of what we do can only be seen on the ET slip at the end of the track.
added...
Valve MUST BE designed with SHARP angles. You can not make it " swoopy" as Mummert stated above. It will kill power fast than you could ever imagine and make the engine detonation sensitive. VERY detonation sensitive!!!!! Valve shape like port shape is not initiative. You cant just make it look aerodynamic and it will function properly. The fuel will not atomize off of smooth aerodynamic shapes. People forget about the fact that we are moving fuel and air not just air. If you make the valve so no sharp edges are present, it will kill the fuel shearing effects atomize the fuel going into the chamber. Designing valves with radiuses instead of sharp angles was an excellent learning opportunity. Have to think Hendricks for that one. They did the testing. After there testing I backed it up with my own tests on a Drag race engine and the results where even more profound.
Shape of port side of valve?
I've never done any porting or other head work; it really isn't my area.
On these and other forums people are often talking about the fine details of porting and flow and lift and what shape works best. I have never though seen any discussion about the back side of the valve, the curve from the stem to the edge. This shape must have an influence on the flow but nobody, it seems, talks about altering that shape. Why is that?
Darin:
The shape or, " Back angle" and "stem radius", in conjunction with the seat and back cut angles all work together in order to "TUNE" the (seat-throat-chamber) portion of the intake tract. The most important area ANYWHERE in the intake tract.
What we have found is that valves used for 30-45 degree seats in conjunction with cams over .700 lift, tune up best with a 12 degree back angle, 3/8 stem radius and seats back cut angles at .080 to .090 wide. For low lift cams .600 or under the venturi tunes up best with a 10 degree back angle, 3/8 stem radius and .090-.100 wide seat back cut width. WIDE back cuts are not only necessary, they are worth about 10-15 hp if done properly! I have not only seen it, I have proven it to people hundreds of times. The widths of those angles helps " tune up" the venturi. That's right, you can have an extra 10-15 hp if you just back cut your valves correctly. That's if the valves came with no back cut to start with of course.
Back angles greater than 12 degrees are primarily used on the exhaust but in some instances, they are used in the intake. For instance, short port hemis like the Top Fuel heads and the old 426 Chryslers all tune up best with 15-21 degree back angles and 1/2 radius because it's more of what we call a "line of sight" port. Some 4 valve heads have intake valves with back angles greater than 12 because they too are more of a line of sight port. So there are rare instances where the intake valve can have a back angle greater than 12 but again, those are special circumstances. Back angles greater than 12 on ANY Wedge or canted valve heads is out of the question. Don't even try it its a total disaster! I have seen a 10hp drop going from 12 to 14 degrees. I have also seen power drop going from 12 degrees to 10 degrees with high lift cams.
We are talking about "TUNING" the venturi section. The all important ( Seat-Throat_ chamber_) area. You know,,, That area that's more important than anywhere else in the induction system. That area where the air must make the greatest directional change at the highest air speed. This area is critically sensitive to change. Very small changes can have profound effects on the flow curve both static on the bench and, even worse, where you cant see it. Dynamically in the running engine. We cant see everything on the bench. Much of what we do can only be seen on the ET slip at the end of the track.
added...
Valve MUST BE designed with SHARP angles. You can not make it " swoopy" as Mummert stated above. It will kill power fast than you could ever imagine and make the engine detonation sensitive. VERY detonation sensitive!!!!! Valve shape like port shape is not initiative. You cant just make it look aerodynamic and it will function properly. The fuel will not atomize off of smooth aerodynamic shapes. People forget about the fact that we are moving fuel and air not just air. If you make the valve so no sharp edges are present, it will kill the fuel shearing effects atomize the fuel going into the chamber. Designing valves with radiuses instead of sharp angles was an excellent learning opportunity. Have to think Hendricks for that one. They did the testing. After there testing I backed it up with my own tests on a Drag race engine and the results where even more profound.
11-03-2019, 07:54 PM
#308
Jon Capizzi Sets New LS Stock Bottom End Record
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...om-end-record/
11-03-2019, 08:09 PM
#309
ModSquad
iTrader: (6)
Smoke, the DI issues are no secret. Audi, bmw, and even vw have had the carbon problems for a long while now. When I first heard GM was giving the DI a try, I wondered how long it would be before it came up on Tech. Audi has a service protocol that utilizes a valve cleaning agent being sprayed into the engine.
11-03-2019, 08:09 PM
#310
427 cid N/A LS Engine 900 hp drag build
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...n-a-ls-engine/
Waiting on ER's REC Ls & Andrew's LSX EMC build on the site. Both being winners something should be posted or printed shortly.
11-03-2019, 08:25 PM
#311
Just roaming around Chevelle... that stuff with Darin is from today I believe.
Zach is a CNC wizard... Gave me all the options with the block I wanted ....just forgot to add the hole thru the block beneath the cam for better breathing with me using a lq. But the rear looking like a ls3 with the oil galleries around the cam and some other stuff. PRI shows coming up and I want to see what's going. Oh yeah ...the shops not moving but will be opened up and it has Plenty space. Besides the shop a wall sperates a garage that can hold @ min 10 cars. Will be re done for more CNC machinery...wink wink .. Cylinder head porting with Shawn's own office. SAM Tech employee's with there own Shop.
Everything's good
Zach is a CNC wizard... Gave me all the options with the block I wanted ....just forgot to add the hole thru the block beneath the cam for better breathing with me using a lq. But the rear looking like a ls3 with the oil galleries around the cam and some other stuff. PRI shows coming up and I want to see what's going. Oh yeah ...the shops not moving but will be opened up and it has Plenty space. Besides the shop a wall sperates a garage that can hold @ min 10 cars. Will be re done for more CNC machinery...wink wink .. Cylinder head porting with Shawn's own office. SAM Tech employee's with there own Shop.
Everything's good
11-03-2019, 08:38 PM
#312
The owner & building has been in the hood before I born. Happy there not moving down the street, as it's right around the corner from my aunt's a 5 min walk & around a 8 min drive from the house. Just go to the old stomping grounds for new engine trends or news ...or just text Zach..
Been looking into welded chamber's besides milling or going with a dome piston ... for compression above where I'm at with 62 CC's. Spare head & another story.
Been looking into welded chamber's besides milling or going with a dome piston ... for compression above where I'm at with 62 CC's. Spare head & another story.
11-09-2019, 12:03 AM
#313
G Atsma, you know we cool right? Keep up as ls1 tech is just a forum and 1 of the big 3 engine related forums. I'm on all btw.
Here you go from a friend @ SEMA with info...to me now to u. I 've just got better people i deal with...no harn No foul. I did say 800 is the new 700 (speedtrigger F that up lol.) Now everyone has or wants 700 na. Chris Frank we need 2 talk about me posting and a discount...we go way back ...LOL. Ls3 heads ref: Lil .....
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...58832774306505
Here you go from a friend @ SEMA with info...to me now to u. I 've just got better people i deal with...no harn No foul. I did say 800 is the new 700 (speedtrigger F that up lol.) Now everyone has or wants 700 na. Chris Frank we need 2 talk about me posting and a discount...we go way back ...LOL. Ls3 heads ref: Lil .....
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...58832774306505
Last edited by Smokey B; 11-09-2019 at 12:13 AM.
The following users liked this post:
G Atsma (11-09-2019)
11-09-2019, 03:44 PM
#315
^^^ is it a race motor? More details please. Im always interested in big numbers builds like that. They usually end up being aggressive race motors which are track oriented n not built with any longevity/reliability in mind. Which is cool for thier intended purposes. I just like the info to compare notes
11-11-2019, 04:38 PM
#316
G Atsma, you know we cool right? Keep up as ls1 tech is just a forum and 1 of the big 3 engine related forums. I'm on all btw.
Here you go from a friend @ SEMA with info...to me now to u. I 've just got better people i deal with...no harn No foul. I did say 800 is the new 700 (speedtrigger F that up lol.) Now everyone has or wants 700 na. Chris Frank we need 2 talk about me posting and a discount...we go way back ...LOL. Ls3 heads ref: Lil .....
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...58832774306505
Here you go from a friend @ SEMA with info...to me now to u. I 've just got better people i deal with...no harn No foul. I did say 800 is the new 700 (speedtrigger F that up lol.) Now everyone has or wants 700 na. Chris Frank we need 2 talk about me posting and a discount...we go way back ...LOL. Ls3 heads ref: Lil .....
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...58832774306505
Seriously very impressive, but not 800whp apples to apples with everything else out there. 700whp below SAE running pump gas with torco.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-700-rwhp.html
11-14-2019, 12:52 AM
#317
Quick did U know?
Mast ports all Factory style LS heads all. Mill, hand port, CNC port, guide replacement... you name it... Darin's Something else!
Added the heads have been updated....all sold assembled. No race heads listed ....Updates from Darin coming ....Small bore Is7 head didn't go to .900 lift. Fact.
Mast ports all Factory style LS heads all. Mill, hand port, CNC port, guide replacement... you name it... Darin's Something else!
Added the heads have been updated....all sold assembled. No race heads listed ....Updates from Darin coming ....Small bore Is7 head didn't go to .900 lift. Fact.
11-14-2019, 01:09 AM
#318
BTW Spanks ...John is the reason I like what I like ..Ole Friend from yrs back. Y u think Darin did my heads. Lots of talk and hp 700 with a stock bottom end says the Top end is working. Killer thing is the heads would like more. 800+ lift < or factor in if e85 was used and more compression was added for a corn loving daily driver.
11-14-2019, 08:51 AM
#320
Darin
All the new ports in the line of Mast Stock porting programs have a CNC program like no other. We have altered the wall texture in the port relative to air speed! What this does is keep fuel off the walls in low speed areas and Smoothes the wall texture on the walls where the speed is the highest. Wet flow boundary condition porting. Anywhere the fuel is prone to trail, the walls are rough. Anywhere the injector sprays and leaves trails in the port has a wall texture capable of reintroducing the fuel back into the air stream. The tools we use machine a special cusp that has a hook on the edge of the arc making the wall rough in only one direction.