The higher the elevation the harder for a engine to make hp...being that the air's thinner(na or FI). Loweer elevation and cooler days = Record breaking ET's & mph numbers. Simple way of thinking about it. Better air @ lower elevation

 

Basically the air was like being 5000 ft above sea level. So ambient pressure is 96-97 kpa vs 101 standard

 

You are just reading things different. Because the way I see it if his tuner was a charlatan as several of you are in here constantly pertaining, the customers engine would have a bunch more expensive parts recommended by the tuner and the engine would be a failure. Instead, it was a strong performing engine with fairly basic stuff (hand ported oem ls3's etc, no 5k cylinder heads).. done by the same guy. And then the customer wanted to get more out of it. What did the tuner recommend? Shorter runners... advised against using the heavy rockers... advised on his preferred brand of solid lifters ... wow what a crook! lol

The long runners are a restriction. So how is his tuner wrong for giving advise to increase HP. And on the valve train, tuner was against using the heavy roller rockers that his customer decided to use which resulted in not optimum high rpm power in his opinion. Now that Bortous informed us the tuner has his own 7 second turbo car.. makes it even more obvious I think he knows what he is talking about.

So I just don't see how you are all jumping on the tuner is so incompetent, because if you read *between the lines* it looks to me like if the tuner had his way from the start, the rockers would have been lighter resulting in better high rpm power with the hydraulic setup, and if they still decided to go solid roller for even more HP, he advised on using other lifters which are probably a better brand, and the car would be tuned and finished. Not Bort's fault either for choosing parts that don't work, when they are marketed and sold as otherwise.

From what I've read, I'd take my own car to this guy to dyno tune it if I find I couldn't tune it myself. And I honestly can't say that about 90% of workshops in this country. I don't trust most of them. The fact he took it all the way to 8200 rpm on it's first pull on e85 with a solid roller, doesn't bother me one bit. I would have done the same Lol. They wanted to see where power would drop off.

 

From your comments, I'm beginning to believe you ARE the tuner in question.

That's how bad your comments are reading. If you had only joined in the last month or two, I'd actually believe it.

 

Launch,
There are certain people that have pre-conceived thoughts and then they look at everything in a negative light regardless if the result is good or not.
Doesn't worry me.
Everything is a learning curve.
And you are right, engine was a strong performer with the previous hydraulic setup.
Not many others with the same combinations produced such good power results.
Even with the current combination when those heavy rockers were fitted he took the rocker bolts to the machine shop and had them rethread the bolts almost all the way through.
The bolts were only threaded about 1/4 of the way from yella terra so the clamping force and stability would not have been as good.
There are things done I probably have not listed here.
If I ever did go back to a hydraulic setup I would change out the rockers and springs.
I would use the yella terra ultra lite pro. (same/similar ones mamo uses)
PAC 1207X springs.
Isky high rpm short travel hydraulic lifters. (Which I still have)
And the other recommendation I got from Pat G which was a 242/250 113LSA +4 cam motion camshaft.
I don't think once going solid you could ever go back to a hydraulic I am told but we will see.
Because of this experience I am not going to touch Morel solid lifters again for any build unless I have an aftermarket block.
In regards to tuners I have had a very positive experience with a business over in Dandenong called G&D Performance tuning over 10 years ago.
I only went there once for a tune when my LS2 was stock with only an exhaust and extractors and they did an excellent job.
I think new owners took over around that time so I am unsure if they are still reputable.
You should contact my guy and have a chat to him.

 

I've never met Bortous or his tuner. It's just how i've perceived things so far. Maybe it's an aussie thing why I understand the situation better because i know if his tuner was a crook he wouldn't have helped this customer so far up to this point with a good performing engine. Down here people offering you a service typically if they are that type of ******** to screw you around, they don't even ever do one good thing for you.

 

Lol.
You really are reading it wrong.
I am certainly no tuner.
I'm beginning to think it's an Australian way of saying things that the Americans might be misinterpreting what is actually being said.
Seems to be a different picture is being painted in the minds of those folks.
I am no English language scholar but I'm sure my points and comments are clear enough.

 

If I ever need help to tune my car I will. Up to this point i've managed by myself. I also know all about G&D. I lived in Adelaide back in those days so i didn't personally know any of the Melbourne workshops. But back then I was still tuning my car by myself, and racing it at A.I.R. (my old VTii HSV R8 that is). I actually bought the very first single user ls1edit tuning device in the country. I still have it, and tunes saved from back then. It's like the dinosaur of ls tuners . But I use HP tuners now.

I'm still stuck right now on what exactly to do with this ls2 I have still sitting on the stand. More on what final CR to run. Do a max effort n/a only and e85 , or do I keep CR lower so I can put a turbo on it later. Making a final decision does my head in. I don't want engines in/out of the car too often.. I like the car always running and never apart for too long, I have bad OCD about it. It's barely been apart ever for longer than a week. Only when I did the LS conversion.

 

Ah the good old LS2.
Are you using the stock heads?

 

Me neither. Except for the drop-in style that use the factory buckets. But now I'm wondering if I should even trust those or quit while I'm still ahead and buy crowers with axle oiling. Because a local ebay seller just got some stock in of them. $1500. When ebay offers another discount I have to have a good think about it. I don't want to go to all that effort to swap out my current engine and end up with a turd. If it's going to go down like that, I may as well just throw some good cnc cathedrals and fast intake/102 on the current ls1 in my Camaro and have fun with it.

Small bore ls7's. I should have my own build thread but I take so long to get it finished I'd bore everyone to death. This is my engine taken earlier in the year..

 

Very good heads.
If you want it to drive well etc you can't really go max effort because you will need lots of overlap.
I would probably go somewhere in the middle so you get decent driving manners.
That also looks like a GM LS7 intake.
I'm not sure how that would go on an LS2 block.
I would have Pat G or Ed curtis spec you a camshaft for your build.
In regards to E85 be aware that your fuel economy will become 35% worse.
Not an issue if this vehicle is a weekender.
You will make a bit more torque and hp if compression is high enough.
Gains aren't that big on NA setups.
Forced induction different story.

 

Look, I'm not intentionally trying to be negative and drag this tuners name through the mud. It's just that some of the stuff Bortous has stated were comments from his tuner struck me as showing incompetency or a lack of understanding as to how an engine works and responds to changes. The tuner blamed the runners and the valvetrain for the low power and neither netted the results Bortous was expecting. We are all trying to help identify cause of the low power output of this engine and to me, this tuner is a big problem.

Exhibit A: Intake Manifold Runners:
If the data log is showing a restriction, which would likely be a low MAP reading at WOT, then the cure is not for shorter runners. A restriction as indicated by a change in pressure is usually due to a lack of cross sectional area for air to flow through. This is the whole principle in which carburetors work. Unless something has changed in the design of the FAST runners since I last looked into this, the shorter runners offer no more cross sectional area than the long runners. The shorter runners would help the harmonics of the air column at higher RPM, but does not address an actual restriction. The appropriate course of action would be to increase the crosss ection through porting or a new manifold with larger runners. The tuner was wrong about this as the next dyno test showed a loss of power.


Exhibit B: Valve Float:
This was posted after the engine had been tested at least twice. To me, it seems that the tuner failed to "check the valvetrain" when he first put it all together and did so only after the car had been run on the dyno several times. Later posts suggest that the springs were set up too far from coil bind and were eventually shimmed up, which again, should have been done upon initial assembly. All this with absolutely no sign of valve float in the dyno graph., not to mention weak torque output even at lower RPM where there should be no valve float with 200lbs of spring force at closing. The cam, lifters, and pushrods were all changed out, and what happened? Like psicko said, he is still down 35whp from his old hydraulic roller setup and still making less than 1ft-lb per cubic inch of torque. Tuner was wrong again.


Exhibit C: Torque Output
I really shouldn't even have to explain this one out. The first graph Bortous posted showed that his 408ci LS engine with almost 13:1 compression can barely muster 550Nm or 405ft-lbs of torque and the tuner was thinking it could only be either the cylinder heads or the valve train?! After all the mods since then to address this "valvetrain instability" and the torque has actually dropped even more! How a professional dyno tuner can look at a relatively high compression LS engine that is making less than 1ft-lb per cubic inch and not think there is a dead cylinder is beyond me. Crappy heads and even a really unstable valvetrain wouldn't kill the torque at 5200rpm this bad. My car made more torque than that on a Mustang dyno with a 6.2L with 11:1 compression and unported 241 cathedral port heads. This to me is the strongest evidence to indicate either incompetency or flat out dishonesty.

 

KCS doing work on a Sunday!

 

And yes, a tuner would easily string someone along if they keep "paying" for the services. I'm sure Bortuous has dropped a pretty penny with this tuner since he's also installing parts and retuning. He's not doing that out of charity...

 

That compression and cam at the crank would be around 650 - 680 with a 402...

 

Bortous what are your exact cam spec's...and compression know 2 Very similar builds....major difference carb & intake...
Bored and gives me something 2 do.....talking on x1 burned out on 2k20 and Call of Duty MW......

 

OK man you got me. Maybe you are right about this guy.

This is why I do my own work on my car and tune it myself. My dyno since I bought my first ls1 car years ago has always been my g-tech (for initial testing) and then the drag strip. I'm not saying that's the best way to go about it, but it's just how I function without buying my own dyno because I haven't trusted anyone else with my cars. A lot of these workshops down here they make their own personal car fast, and maybe 1 or 2 of their closest friends, and most everyone else gets messed around.

That said I'd say this one is possibly just lack of experience with N/A setups, more than flat out dishonesty. But you never know....I don't know what else he has built to be able to make that call.

 

I already have a big comp cam already installed in the block that i'm going to run as a solid roller, it has 30 degrees of overlap. For N/A use. It's not a daily driver so not worried much about driving manners. If I do decide to keep the car N/A for good, i'm thinking around 13.3:1 cr which is where I am with flat tops (because these custom heads have only 49.5cc chambers) and run it on e85 should tame the cam a bit and make decent more power. I know it'll use approx 30% more fuel on e85 and it's not cheap here like the USA.

But if i do a lower comp ratio then I don't have to change the pistons again or remove the engine if I then decide to do a single turbo setup after this ls2 has been run and tested in the car as N/A, to make sure the valvetrain and everything else is in order. Because these ls7 heads are oddball from an ecr nascar team, I want to get it going n/a first to make sure everything is correct. I regret ever buying them but they owe me $3500 with the T&D rockers so I'm not backing out now. And ls7 heads make a lot of power boosted also, and I confirmed these do fit all the factory style intakes (thank god that wasn't also oddball) by bolting down the LS7 intake, so it's not all bad.

I will make a decision once the new year passes and finish it when I get time. I just need to measure for pushrod length and order and I already have just about everything else. The intake is an oem ls7 intake and I have a 102 warr tb. I don't see the intake being an issue? It will just flow more air than an ls6 intake. I'm thinking of it as it'll just be similar to a fast 102 intake on an LS2. I already have a 5500rpm 8" converter to go in the car (for N/A use) so any lack of torque under 5k rpm won't be an issue.

 

Do you feel you are being misled by your tuner? Spent more money than you feel you should have? Is your LS still under performing? Detective KCS at your service Call *****00049404

 

KCS very well written and you do have some good points there.
I think I am beginning to see why you guys are viewing things this way.
It is the way I have been posting.
Let me clear some of the points up.
Exhibit A.
I agree with.
The cure was not shorter runners. I don't know why I was told this but maybe he was guessing at the time.
Who knows but it worked out well in the end because those runners have given me what I was wanting.
More RPM and a higher peak rpm hp and barely any loss of overall torque at all.
It's a win.

Exhibit B.

Springs were set up as normal with 165lb of seat with the hydraulic roller setup.
Because of the heavier rockers and the heavier stainless steel valves and having too much lift with the hydraulic camshaft at .660 lift there were valvetrain instability issues.
Camshaft was not designed to run with that much lift nor to work with a heavier rocker.
Not only was there low power and torque but also power was falling off a cliff after 6000rpm.
Then when springs were shimmed the power hung on but power was still low.
Again, it was my choice to fit these springs and rockers.
I should have listened.
Also the dyno graphs I was posting were the initial graphs.
There are other ones in my files which I should have posted which are more accurate.

Exhibit C

Dead cylinders was the first thing that was checked. There were no issues here.
The torque figure was around 550nm or lower when engine wasn't running right and when power was falling off a cliff.
The final torque figure is 1088Nm at the rear wheels with a strong torque curve from 3500-6500rpm before it start's falling off.
I will need to get a copy of the correct readout due to a software fault. That sheet should be saying 1088nm not 550nm.
My bad here. I didn't realise the torque figure was reading so low till now.
When there really was lower torque the converter was behaving very tight and only stalling at around 2800rpm. Now with the right torque it is stalling where it should be.
Power is lower than what it should be but as we know the tune is not completed yet. Still needs some work and there will be more in it for sure especially in some cooler weather.
The looser and higher stall speed will also be robbing some power.
I will need to re write the latest results in a better flow.
I will be more careful listing the results.
Also KCS, next year I'm looking at fitting that new FAST tunnel ram on here to see how it does.

To conclude, my tuner has his own list of parts, camshafts etc which he uses that work very well for all the different combinations that he does.
I wanted to go a different route and it has been a big learning curve for me and things don't always happen as you expect them too.
Next time I know what I should and shouldn't do.
If the tuner was dishonest or taking me for a ride I would have left long ago.
You guys don't know how much this gentleman has helped me out over the years not only with modifications but with other general mechanical work, plus advice etc.
Also don't forget this is the first time I have ever had an issue.
I hope this is clearer for everyone.