5.0 vs 2000 ss
03-29-2011, 10:47 AM
#142
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I won't argue that you don't know enough about the DOHC then... I'll just have to wonder why you made such a useless comment. 
It sure doesn't look like you were trying to be nice about the whole DOHC thing in that response. The heads have never really been the problem insofar as performance, the limited size of the cylinder bore has. Having built several yourself, I'd think you know the heads flow quite well(and you do know). That's what got me about your post... The heads don't flow? That's NUTS! Just as importantly, velocity, etc. matter. It's always been the small cylinder bore in my opinion, which prevented all that flow from mattering without forced induction. Once that's added, it's obvious the heads weren't the issue. Anyway... I'm just tired of the same ole same ole about their engines. I actually still expect to see 550rwhp from the current design, which still doesn't really suit me in terms of cubes. I think the 6.2L will become animalistic, however.
No doubt, the crying is already started on the whole 'but it has 4 cams" matter... I was going to be REALLY snotty and remark on that specifically last night, but decided it wasn't going to help make my point. DOHC is the future, end of story. I see it, you see it, most people see it. Anyone who really believes otherwise is only going to be another person left in the dust(due to gov't. regs mostly). The OHV does work very well itself. That said, HEMI is excellent as is the old Ford style(much like what the LS uses today) when it's large enough, like the LS. Realistically of course, even that can't compete. The only reason DOHC isn't used in things like Top Fuel dragsters is because it's not legal, I'm sure.
Your LQ: Ya know, that whole "strength" thing boils down from the other reasons you listed(for me). Even if not cheaper, it's still stronger than the typical production LS. Personally, the only problem with it is added weight. People here constantly harp on the weight of the old 4.6L... Well it's lighter than the LQ, right? If the LS1(as the 4th gen came) can't survive the power but the 4.6L can using aluminum, I'm thinking it doessn't matter which weighs more... The LQ is a likely replacement for the LS... Anyway, enough on that.
It sure doesn't look like you were trying to be nice about the whole DOHC thing in that response. The heads have never really been the problem insofar as performance, the limited size of the cylinder bore has. Having built several yourself, I'd think you know the heads flow quite well(and you do know). That's what got me about your post... The heads don't flow? That's NUTS! Just as importantly, velocity, etc. matter. It's always been the small cylinder bore in my opinion, which prevented all that flow from mattering without forced induction. Once that's added, it's obvious the heads weren't the issue. Anyway... I'm just tired of the same ole same ole about their engines. I actually still expect to see 550rwhp from the current design, which still doesn't really suit me in terms of cubes. I think the 6.2L will become animalistic, however.
No doubt, the crying is already started on the whole 'but it has 4 cams" matter... I was going to be REALLY snotty and remark on that specifically last night, but decided it wasn't going to help make my point. DOHC is the future, end of story. I see it, you see it, most people see it. Anyone who really believes otherwise is only going to be another person left in the dust(due to gov't. regs mostly). The OHV does work very well itself. That said, HEMI is excellent as is the old Ford style(much like what the LS uses today) when it's large enough, like the LS. Realistically of course, even that can't compete. The only reason DOHC isn't used in things like Top Fuel dragsters is because it's not legal, I'm sure.
Your LQ: Ya know, that whole "strength" thing boils down from the other reasons you listed(for me). Even if not cheaper, it's still stronger than the typical production LS. Personally, the only problem with it is added weight. People here constantly harp on the weight of the old 4.6L... Well it's lighter than the LQ, right? If the LS1(as the 4th gen came) can't survive the power but the 4.6L can using aluminum, I'm thinking it doessn't matter which weighs more... The LQ is a likely replacement for the LS... Anyway, enough on that.
I do not think you'll ever get away completely from fanboyism when it comes to such historical rivals, unfortunately. A lot of ignorant statements seem to pop up when talking about competitive new platforms etc. Anyways, thanks for shedding some light on an otherwise dark-side for me. I was just never into Mustangs but I realize the value of knowing what's out there. Some of us have our heads up our asses I think. I do not know a lot about modular tech but would like to learn some more, and it's guys like you that provide this site with some interesting perspectives and knowledge
03-29-2011, 01:43 PM
#144
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I see what you are saying for sure here. However, I'm wondering if legality is the only reason DOHC is not part of the arsenol for TF dragsters? I also am inclined to speculate on the comparative difference in cost and potential for the average street warrior to make good streetable NA power with both platforms. How much heavier would a modular 5.7 be compared to LSx? Additionally, how much NA power could be made with a mod motor for the same price as swapping a cam and heads on an ls platform? I think you make some interesting and meaningful points and in no way am I disputing what you have said. I'm just looking for further clarification is all. The ohv design was thought to have reached its maturity a long time ago, before LS designs graced the General's vehicles. Opti-spark models could have very well been the last of the pushrods I presume, but thankfully for all our sakes the ls was born
I recall some stories about a couple DOHC powerplants in the early-mid 90's, one with a turbo and the other, a twin screw. Both were very quick and rules seemed to change to prohibit them both. Anyway, I don't have enough details on that anymore.
The weight difference, I can't say much that hasn't been said... However, I don't expect a 5.7L version to weigh much more, if any more, than the current 5L. I'm looking to see a 5.8L which would probably be a newer rendition of the current 5.4L, which weighs more, but I'm not sure how much more. It would still be a physical giant compared to the LS series, but the weight can be closer than it looks, depending on how its built. Aluminum can drop about 100 lb vs iron and the 5.4L is right around 525-540 lb., depending on S or D OHC. I don't know the weight of the aluminum 5.4L. They could built a 5.8L at about 450 lb., I'm sure.
As far as making power with all those changes, that's part of what makes a modular so nice. Most things need not be replaced. You could see well over 600hp without modifying the heads. let alone replacing them. The cams cost more, but are they needed? A 5L makes 400+... a 5.7L would easily make more. The only drawback is reciprocating mass(in my view). Still, with DOHC, high rpm just comes with the territory. This is a case where "less is more" in many ways.
The whole thing boils down to the heads, really. Less moving parts, more rpm, more air in and out... More power. The typical automobile engine is really just like an air compressor... Those which move more air are stronger than others. DOHC heads, specifically when added to a block big enough to allow enough airflow, simply move more air than those without as much valve opening(including area and time open and closed). DOHC's with variable valve timing are seriously advantageous. They can simply more capably optimize flow. Overall engine weight plays a role, but a lighter car can be built around a heavier engine(Mustang is lighter than Camaro) and I'd be more concerned about physical size than weight, particularly with todays 5L, considering it's just not that heavy.
I do not think you'll ever get away completely from fanboyism when it comes to such historical rivals, unfortunately. A lot of ignorant statements seem to pop up when talking about competitive new platforms etc. Anyways, thanks for shedding some light on an otherwise dark-side for me. I was just never into Mustangs but I realize the value of knowing what's out there. Some of us have our heads up our asses I think. I do not know a lot about modular tech but would like to learn some more, and it's guys like you that provide this site with some interesting perspectives and knowledge
The rest... Thanks. I appreciate it.
03-29-2011, 02:21 PM
#145
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Nice kill. On another note 1 more 5.0 loses to a old *** bolt on camaro. The mustang also has exhaust and intake (not my vid by the way).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
03-29-2011, 02:44 PM
#146
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXpECrDIHjc
Saw this yesterday and thought it was funny even though I'm a gm guy.
Saw this yesterday and thought it was funny even though I'm a gm guy.
03-29-2011, 03:04 PM
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Nice kill. On another note 1 more 5.0 loses to a old *** bolt on camaro. The mustang also has exhaust and intake (not my vid by the way).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
03-29-2011, 03:08 PM
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03-29-2011, 04:13 PM
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Nice kill. On another note 1 more 5.0 loses to a old *** bolt on camaro. The mustang also has exhaust and intake (not my vid by the way).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
03-29-2011, 04:52 PM
#153
03-29-2011, 06:21 PM
#155
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Nice kill. On another note 1 more 5.0 loses to a old *** bolt on camaro. The mustang also has exhaust and intake (not my vid by the way).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWLEkybWWbI
Lemme just give my take... I'm not the GM or Ford engineer... Ya know, I'm just looking at what's out here.
I recall some stories about a couple DOHC powerplants in the early-mid 90's, one with a turbo and the other, a twin screw. Both were very quick and rules seemed to change to prohibit them both. Anyway, I don't have enough details on that anymore.
The weight difference, I can't say much that hasn't been said... However, I don't expect a 5.7L version to weigh much more, if any more, than the current 5L. I'm looking to see a 5.8L which would probably be a newer rendition of the current 5.4L, which weighs more, but I'm not sure how much more. It would still be a physical giant compared to the LS series, but the weight can be closer than it looks, depending on how its built. Aluminum can drop about 100 lb vs iron and the 5.4L is right around 525-540 lb., depending on S or D OHC. I don't know the weight of the aluminum 5.4L. They could built a 5.8L at about 450 lb., I'm sure.
As far as making power with all those changes, that's part of what makes a modular so nice. Most things need not be replaced. You could see well over 600hp without modifying the heads. let alone replacing them. The cams cost more, but are they needed? A 5L makes 400+... a 5.7L would easily make more. The only drawback is reciprocating mass(in my view). Still, with DOHC, high rpm just comes with the territory. This is a case where "less is more" in many ways.
The whole thing boils down to the heads, really. Less moving parts, more rpm, more air in and out... More power. The typical automobile engine is really just like an air compressor... Those which move more air are stronger than others. DOHC heads, specifically when added to a block big enough to allow enough airflow, simply move more air than those without as much valve opening(including area and time open and closed). DOHC's with variable valve timing are seriously advantageous. They can simply more capably optimize flow. Overall engine weight plays a role, but a lighter car can be built around a heavier engine(Mustang is lighter than Camaro) and I'd be more concerned about physical size than weight, particularly with todays 5L, considering it's just not that heavy.
The 1st and 2nd sentences here... Spot on, no doubt. The next generation of drivers, racers and wannabes is always just a click away...
The rest... Thanks. I appreciate it.
I recall some stories about a couple DOHC powerplants in the early-mid 90's, one with a turbo and the other, a twin screw. Both were very quick and rules seemed to change to prohibit them both. Anyway, I don't have enough details on that anymore.
The weight difference, I can't say much that hasn't been said... However, I don't expect a 5.7L version to weigh much more, if any more, than the current 5L. I'm looking to see a 5.8L which would probably be a newer rendition of the current 5.4L, which weighs more, but I'm not sure how much more. It would still be a physical giant compared to the LS series, but the weight can be closer than it looks, depending on how its built. Aluminum can drop about 100 lb vs iron and the 5.4L is right around 525-540 lb., depending on S or D OHC. I don't know the weight of the aluminum 5.4L. They could built a 5.8L at about 450 lb., I'm sure.
As far as making power with all those changes, that's part of what makes a modular so nice. Most things need not be replaced. You could see well over 600hp without modifying the heads. let alone replacing them. The cams cost more, but are they needed? A 5L makes 400+... a 5.7L would easily make more. The only drawback is reciprocating mass(in my view). Still, with DOHC, high rpm just comes with the territory. This is a case where "less is more" in many ways.
The whole thing boils down to the heads, really. Less moving parts, more rpm, more air in and out... More power. The typical automobile engine is really just like an air compressor... Those which move more air are stronger than others. DOHC heads, specifically when added to a block big enough to allow enough airflow, simply move more air than those without as much valve opening(including area and time open and closed). DOHC's with variable valve timing are seriously advantageous. They can simply more capably optimize flow. Overall engine weight plays a role, but a lighter car can be built around a heavier engine(Mustang is lighter than Camaro) and I'd be more concerned about physical size than weight, particularly with todays 5L, considering it's just not that heavy.
The 1st and 2nd sentences here... Spot on, no doubt. The next generation of drivers, racers and wannabes is always just a click away...
The rest... Thanks. I appreciate it.
03-29-2011, 06:28 PM
#156
Not looking to forward to the ZL1 really. Sure it's gonna have a kick-*** powerplant and make gobs of horsepower but im just not liking that Zeta platform period. Until GM changes that I won't consider buying a new Camaro. Whatever happen to them possibly switching to the "Alpha" platform for 2012???
According to the site in the link below looks like it might be all the way until 2014 to 2015 before we see a 6th gen camaro.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...we-know-92357/
03-29-2011, 06:41 PM
#157
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^^^I didn't like them at first, but up close and personal I actually think they are pretty slick! A little heavy but that's the way of the automotive safety world these days. I would own one, but I can barely afford to keep this thing up to snuff as it is lol. Love your car btw!
03-29-2011, 08:47 PM
#158
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ha mine will no doubt..... did i say a modded one? just said i want to beat one so everyone on here can bitch that something was wrong or mustang wasnt racing etc sometimes i think im on svtperformance or whatever the mustang site is the way people act on here and why you on here when you have a vtec? Im not taking anything away fom the new mustang they are stout but poeple are acting crazy about them
03-29-2011, 11:58 PM
#159
03-30-2011, 02:19 AM
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Actually, GM did have the need...and didn't market it as they should IMO.
Ford didn't have the need because they were selling Mustangs like hotcakes.
Not trying to start an argument, I know you're pretty anti-Ford by reading your posts
Ford didn't have the need because they were selling Mustangs like hotcakes.
Not trying to start an argument, I know you're pretty anti-Ford by reading your posts