2014 C7 Corvette vs 2014 GT500
11-09-2013, 09:47 AM
#401
Which would have been fine I suppose if it didn't follow the Korean-Watch formula.
(Those who served westpac will perhaps recall the "Roleks"… Not a particularly fine chronometer. Some would argue it wasn't a chronometer at all.)
But, ya can't throw that pile on US.
The 80s weren't kind to any of the brands, albeit an improvement over the 70s. But if anyone got away with it, it was Pontiac with their T/A and sub-models.
11-09-2013, 10:07 AM
#403
(Now this is where the naysayers will jump in and demand that the two car ARE direct competitors, while desperately needing to cling to the certainty that the '13 500 is in another league from the ZL1. It's an invalid species of reasoning which gets more adorable every time I see it. With some signs that we maybe working through 'adorable', shuffling quickly into sad.)
FACT: the ZL1 is right where it should be in terms of the Line. The '13-500 is a hundred HP over the line.
Ford needed something to remain relevant and it used the 500 as a means to do it. Which is fine… and congrats to the guys that are enjoying that crazy-assed fluke. But Chevy isn't going to push against the Vette brand with a Camaro, just because Ford decided to **** the bed and overbuild a pony car.
I LOVE this nonsense where the General is putting out the BEST factory production cars in WORLD HISTORY and somehow, they're screwing it up because Ford slapped a massive blower on a pre-modded engine.
It was a desperate move that was a REACTION to consistently superior performance of the Chevy platform.
You can call that 'fanboy BS' all day long and it's not going to change it from its position as immutable truth.
11-09-2013, 10:19 AM
#406
10 Second Club
iTrader: (8)
I never sai not to compare the two cars.. because honestly, since the Camaro offers nothing to compete.. especially in a straight line(which is where the Mustang and Camaros have battled since the 60's), people tend to move it up to competing with the Vettes.
Problem is they were never designed to compete with each other. The Ford GT on the other hand was similar in purpose to the Vette's.. and well.. we know how well that played out for the Vettes. If only they still made them.
As far as the Z28 goes.. my reply was to the basic GM guys argument that the Z28 is faster than the ZL1.. and will be faster than the Shelby. Fine.. its is an awesome car. It will tear up road courses because it was purpose built for it. It has no sound insulation, no a/c, no radio. etc.. it is purpose built.
The owners of these cars, will no be beating them up on road courses on a daily basis due the the limited production numbers. Most will sit with less than 100 miles in rich guys garages for investments. You will not see them out on the street cruising around looking for a race.
Now I ask you this. How do you think the 2015 SVT Mustang will perform with IRS, possible TT 5.0, and Carbon ceramic brakes? Don't you see that this is the same thing that happened to the ZL1? The ZL1 was designed to beat the pre 13' Shelbys.. and Ford reamed their butts with the release of the 2013 GT500.
So the question..... The Z28 has a certain purpose... and in that purpose it outperforms the Shelby(although gutted).... what makes you think Ford won't one-up GM AGAIN with something offered in the 2015 stables? Then I am sure the Z28 owners will cry just like the current ZL1 owners are.
Sorry for the long post... I was sleepy when I woke up, and drank 5 cups of coffee real quick..... now I am going to run laps around the neighborhood..... BBL.....
Problem is they were never designed to compete with each other. The Ford GT on the other hand was similar in purpose to the Vette's.. and well.. we know how well that played out for the Vettes. If only they still made them.
As far as the Z28 goes.. my reply was to the basic GM guys argument that the Z28 is faster than the ZL1.. and will be faster than the Shelby. Fine.. its is an awesome car. It will tear up road courses because it was purpose built for it. It has no sound insulation, no a/c, no radio. etc.. it is purpose built.
The owners of these cars, will no be beating them up on road courses on a daily basis due the the limited production numbers. Most will sit with less than 100 miles in rich guys garages for investments. You will not see them out on the street cruising around looking for a race.
Now I ask you this. How do you think the 2015 SVT Mustang will perform with IRS, possible TT 5.0, and Carbon ceramic brakes? Don't you see that this is the same thing that happened to the ZL1? The ZL1 was designed to beat the pre 13' Shelbys.. and Ford reamed their butts with the release of the 2013 GT500.
So the question..... The Z28 has a certain purpose... and in that purpose it outperforms the Shelby(although gutted).... what makes you think Ford won't one-up GM AGAIN with something offered in the 2015 stables? Then I am sure the Z28 owners will cry just like the current ZL1 owners are.
Sorry for the long post... I was sleepy when I woke up, and drank 5 cups of coffee real quick..... now I am going to run laps around the neighborhood..... BBL.....
I hope ford does one up them.....then I hope GM one ups that. Sounds like a win win for everyone.
11-09-2013, 10:23 AM
#407
OVA, Ford is not limited to how much hp or how fast they can make their pony car. GM is limited because of the Corvette. You are the only one here that doesn't think that the GT500 and the ZL1 are direct competitors. GM & Ford both say that they are.
11-09-2013, 10:28 AM
#408
Pontiac coming out with the Fiero was pretty bold. Thanks to a crap budget when it finally was half decent they killed it. The Tran Am GTA was pretty good just expensive and as mentioned the turbo T/a was insane and made a L98 Vette at the time look tame. Turbo Sunbird and Turbo Grand Prix were all pretty bold too.
I will go to my grave demanding that Pontiac could have been saved with an early release of the 5th Gen TA… .
Problem is the General long ago SCUHREWED ITSELF with the unfathomable, beyond foolish labor contracts that it signed. Doing so on the back-room promises of Socialists in the Legislature that when it came down to it, they'd pick up the slack. IDIOTS!
If ya want the truth, lazy assed socialists killed Pontiac and in keeping with their nature, they're about to do the same for the rest of the country.
But that's a discussion for another time and place.
11-09-2013, 10:52 AM
#409
Agreed…
Agreed and I've stated such, in nearly identical language myself…
And this despite the simple, incontrovertible fact, that… as I stated in my above post, the ZL1 is NOT competitive with the '13 500. Not sure how this otherwise irrepressible fact is getting by you guys, but it clearly is. The good news is, as soon as I put this down, I've got a list of honey-do crap a mile long to get to, so I've got ALL DAY to help ya through it.
We agree on this: Chevy built the ZL1 within the scope and parameters of the line… and within the strata within which Ford had been building their previous 500 Models.
.
.
Where we disagree, is where it becomes necessary to use some fundamental logical processes to deduce, to the extent possible, the reasoning used by others to account for their behavior.
Follow me closely Watson…
FORD **** THE BED!
Having had its *** handed to it consistently for two generations and with Chevy's more recent technological LEAPS in overall platform design, with the shifting of the Caddy and the Vette brands into the DEAD CENTER of world class players league… and with the introduction of the 5th Gen and its subsequent sales, Ford was not just falling behind, it was being ERASED.
Ford therefore needed to stir the pot in hopes of finding SOMETHING that would give the world a REASON to discuss Ford.
Now… I think we can at least agree, that Ford's decision to over shoot the power output of their '13 500 by 20% of 'its direct competitor', that this has resulted in NOTHING, if not our DISCUSSING FORD as a player on the performance scene.
Now, let's just test the waters here and see if we can at least agree on that much.
How ya doin?
Last edited by OVA1; 11-09-2013 at 11:05 AM.
11-09-2013, 10:54 AM
#410
I thought is was gm who one upped the Boss...even the LS(speaking of gutted it did not come with a rear seat). Wait....GM 2 upped it with the 1LE and drove the nail in the coffin with the Z28.
I hope ford does one up them.....then I hope GM one ups that. Sounds like a win win for everyone.
I hope ford does one up them.....then I hope GM one ups that. Sounds like a win win for everyone.
11-09-2013, 11:20 AM
#411
Yeah it is.
You guys driving the new 500 are the direct recipients of Ford FINALLY getting off its performance line *** and doing something right.
Now… with that said. The grand irony here, is that ALL Ford did, was what the top percentage of the owners of those cars would have likely done, had it just released another snore in its long sleep. It bored out, cam'd up and SC'd its existing power plant. Setting it at a hundred HP advantage of its slated competitor… pushing it OUT of its slated position.
Look at it this way.
We've all done it.
Bought a car… raced it against those of similar rides.
Modded up until, those we once considered our competition are no longer competitive. Even if they line up… it doesn't matter because the race is over before it begins. We don't look at those guys when we're hunting… we move right on by 'em, looking for bigger game.
And this is my point… Sure, Chevy built the ZL1 to compete with the 500.
Ford built the 500 to tromp the ZL1 and move on to bigger game.
To prove that it worked… read THIS FORUM! "GT500 -v- C6 Vette" yadda yadda.
Here's the thread at the TOP of the forum as I post this:
"2014 C7 Corvette vs 2014 GT500"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/17800452-post1.html
Now the 500 isn't competitive with the ZR1, but with any luck, Ford will come up with something that is.
My point is that the `13 500 is Ford's signal to the world that it has FINALLY recognized what's happened and it's getting to work to fix it.
You guys driving the new 500 are the direct recipients of Ford FINALLY getting off its performance line *** and doing something right.
Now… with that said. The grand irony here, is that ALL Ford did, was what the top percentage of the owners of those cars would have likely done, had it just released another snore in its long sleep. It bored out, cam'd up and SC'd its existing power plant. Setting it at a hundred HP advantage of its slated competitor… pushing it OUT of its slated position.
Look at it this way.
We've all done it.
Bought a car… raced it against those of similar rides.
Modded up until, those we once considered our competition are no longer competitive. Even if they line up… it doesn't matter because the race is over before it begins. We don't look at those guys when we're hunting… we move right on by 'em, looking for bigger game.
And this is my point… Sure, Chevy built the ZL1 to compete with the 500.
Ford built the 500 to tromp the ZL1 and move on to bigger game.
To prove that it worked… read THIS FORUM! "GT500 -v- C6 Vette" yadda yadda.
Here's the thread at the TOP of the forum as I post this:
"2014 C7 Corvette vs 2014 GT500"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/17800452-post1.html
Now the 500 isn't competitive with the ZR1, but with any luck, Ford will come up with something that is.
My point is that the `13 500 is Ford's signal to the world that it has FINALLY recognized what's happened and it's getting to work to fix it.
11-09-2013, 11:46 AM
#412
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Yeah it is. You guys driving the new 500 are the direct recipients of Ford FINALLY getting off its performance line *** and doing something right. Now… with that said. The grand irony here, is that ALL Ford did, was what the top percentage of the owners of those cars would have likely done, had it just released another snore in its long sleep. It bored out, cam'd up and SC'd its existing power plant. Setting it at a hundred HP advantage of its slated competitor… pushing it OUT of its slated position. Look at it this way. We've all done it. Bought a car… raced it against those of similar rides. Modded up until, those we once considered our competition are no longer competitive. Even if they line up… it doesn't matter because the race is over before it begins. We don't look at those guys when we're hunting… we move right on by 'em, looking for bigger game. And this is my point… Sure, Chevy built the ZL1 to compete with the 500. Ford built the 500 to tromp the ZL1 and move on to bigger game. To prove that it worked… read THIS FORUM! "GT500 -v- C6 Vette" yadda yadda. Here's the thread at the TOP of the forum as I post this: "2014 C7 Corvette vs 2014 GT500" https://ls1tech.com/forums/17800452-post1.html Now the 500 isn't competitive with the ZR1, but with any luck, Ford will come up with something that is. My point is that the `13 500 is Ford's signal to the world that it has FINALLY recognized what's happened and it's getting to work to fix it.
11-09-2013, 12:34 PM
#415
Yeah it is.
You guys driving the new 500 are the direct recipients of Ford FINALLY getting off its performance line *** and doing something right.
Now… with that said. The grand irony here, is that ALL Ford did, was what the top percentage of the owners of those cars would have likely done, had it just released another snore in its long sleep. It bored out, cam'd up and SC'd its existing power plant. Setting it at a hundred HP advantage of its slated competitor… pushing it OUT of its slated position.
Look at it this way.
We've all done it.
Bought a car… raced it against those of similar rides.
Modded up until, those we once considered our competition are no longer competitive. Even if they line up… it doesn't matter because the race is over before it begins. We don't look at those guys when we're hunting… we move right on by 'em, looking for bigger game.
And this is my point… Sure, Chevy built the ZL1 to compete with the 500.
Ford built the 500 to tromp the ZL1 and move on to bigger game.
To prove that it worked… read THIS FORUM! "GT500 -v- C6 Vette" yadda yadda.
Here's the thread at the TOP of the forum as I post this:
"2014 C7 Corvette vs 2014 GT500"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/17800452-post1.html
Now the 500 isn't competitive with the ZR1, but with any luck, Ford will come up with something that is.
My point is that the `13 500 is Ford's signal to the world that it has FINALLY recognized what's happened and it's getting to work to fix it.
You guys driving the new 500 are the direct recipients of Ford FINALLY getting off its performance line *** and doing something right.
Now… with that said. The grand irony here, is that ALL Ford did, was what the top percentage of the owners of those cars would have likely done, had it just released another snore in its long sleep. It bored out, cam'd up and SC'd its existing power plant. Setting it at a hundred HP advantage of its slated competitor… pushing it OUT of its slated position.
Look at it this way.
We've all done it.
Bought a car… raced it against those of similar rides.
Modded up until, those we once considered our competition are no longer competitive. Even if they line up… it doesn't matter because the race is over before it begins. We don't look at those guys when we're hunting… we move right on by 'em, looking for bigger game.
And this is my point… Sure, Chevy built the ZL1 to compete with the 500.
Ford built the 500 to tromp the ZL1 and move on to bigger game.
To prove that it worked… read THIS FORUM! "GT500 -v- C6 Vette" yadda yadda.
Here's the thread at the TOP of the forum as I post this:
"2014 C7 Corvette vs 2014 GT500"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/17800452-post1.html
Now the 500 isn't competitive with the ZR1, but with any luck, Ford will come up with something that is.
My point is that the `13 500 is Ford's signal to the world that it has FINALLY recognized what's happened and it's getting to work to fix it.
I can see your point.. and have some disagreements too. The thread you quoted was 2 people racing their cars against each other. That has nothing to do with what the manufacturers produced the cars for.
The new C7 is honestly not going to keep up with the 13-14 GT500's unless its in the turns, or they mod heavily. Had that race been with equal traction on both rides, it would have been a murder in favor of the 500. Alas though, on the street spinnin aint winnin.
I am anxious to see how the C7 Z06 version pans out in the performance spectrum. Along with Ford coming out with the new Mustangs.. should be interesting for all GM and Ford fans. Hopefully the 2016 Camaro will be more competitive than the current 5th gens.
11-09-2013, 12:45 PM
#416
While I know you're mostly just ruffling feathers, the 5.0 has been on the streets for a few years now and is far from a slouch. My take; a Mustang will never compete with a vette. I'd like to see Ford release the GT again and then we can actually bicker about 2 similarly classed 2 seater cars
I expect Ford to come up with something more conducive to competition with the Vette. I've heard rumors about radical changes to the Mustang, which I thought was supposed to come this year.
Obviously, those changes did NOT come. Instead we saw the 500 explode with power.
My thinking is that this was a sea change within Ford. It was truly a brilliant maneuver.
What else could they have done, with so little risk or cost, which could have caused more disruption within the ranks of its primary competitor?
I'm just thankful that they didn't screw up the Mustang. I'd heard they were going to go the way of the bean-counter, changing the Car to something along the Aston-Martin look, while maintaining the Mustang badge.
I'd hate to see the Mustang badge disappear, but I'd rather see THAT than see a redux of the GTO catastrophe under the Blue Oval.
11-09-2013, 01:04 PM
#417
Of course it has everything to do with Manufacturers.
Did you see the outcome of that race? Did you see what is supposed to be a stock Ford Pony Car overpowering Chevy's Stock Base Vette?
In that, you see my point.
Ford didn't build a car to compete with Pony Cars, thus Ford didn't build a car to be considered, discussed and otherwise positioned among Pony cars.
Ford built a car to be noticed as a contender in the Sports Market. By simply doing what BUYERS and OWNERS have always done and therefore what would have been done, had Ford not done it themselves and in the process, never have gotten the credit AS A MANUFACTURER.
Chevy is building world class sports cars. Ford is NOW… "competing"; meaning they are now literally SEEN as being in competition with those cars.
This was NOT the case, until the '13 500 showed up with a decent chassis and MASSIVE modifications (within the scope of production builds … similar to what Chevy did with the ZR1) without anywhere NEAR the costs or liability if that bitch fell flat on its ***.
They simultaneously made the ZL1 look like crap… and pushed the flagship line of their traditional arch competitor, elevating their brand in the process.
I think it was a great move. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but I doubt it.
The new C7 is honestly not going to keep up with the 13-14 GT500's unless its in the turns, or they mod heavily. Had that race been with equal traction on both rides, it would have been a murder in favor of the 500. Alas though, on the street spinnin aint winnin.
I am anxious to see how the C7 Z06 version pans out in the performance spectrum. Along with Ford coming out with the new Mustangs.. should be interesting for all GM and Ford fans. Hopefully the 2016 Camaro will be more competitive than the current 5th gens.
I am anxious to see how the C7 Z06 version pans out in the performance spectrum. Along with Ford coming out with the new Mustangs.. should be interesting for all GM and Ford fans. Hopefully the 2016 Camaro will be more competitive than the current 5th gens.
AGAIN, you've swerved dead on into my point. Chevy has ONE car designed to compete with 700 HP… and it does a FINE job of it. Ford's got one for half the price. Good place to be. But the market isn't that cut and dry. The ZR1 guys are NOT GT500 guys. (Right?)
Ford's got a monster that serves the purpose of causing people to take notice and to set Fords all over YouTube running down the Chevy lineup.
Where Chevy has the advantage is precisely where you claimed the disadvantage of the 500… CHASSIS and SUSPENSION.
Now… let's be honest. Assume you've got a superior platform, which suffers a power deficiency with it's otherwise exceedingly well designed ridiculously efficient NA engine.
What would ya do?
(So would the General… and everyone else.)
Good things are comin' friend… and if we can just keep the bean counters and the Nanny-State OUT of it… it's going to be a BLAST.
Last edited by OVA1; 11-09-2013 at 01:23 PM.
11-09-2013, 01:19 PM
#418
Also… and let's be honest here.
MOST and I mean the VAST MAJORITY of the driving world is NOT represented here in the SRK. (99+%)
The average guy looking for a mid-priced Sports coup, in the 50k rage, is going to get into the ZL1 and have himself a world class 500(ish)whp ride which cuts corners right along side the M-class Beemer, whereupon it crushes that same beemer like a bug… where the road opens up; but runs a second behind the Gt500 and those guys are going to be HAPPY AS HELL! (Unless they are so foolish as to post a video on here… poor bastards.)
The ZL1 is, in terms of the total package, every BIT of what the GT500 is in terms of a straight-line mauler.
Nearly NONE of the ZL1 drivers are going to see a drag strip, let alone stage up on one. And while I don't know the precise percentage, my guess is that the percentage of 500 owners which set their rides on the track will be MUCH higher.
Two different groups of guys… The problem Ford has is that ONE of those groups is MUCH larger than the other and they're on the wrong side of that equation, for the moment.
MOST and I mean the VAST MAJORITY of the driving world is NOT represented here in the SRK. (99+%)
The average guy looking for a mid-priced Sports coup, in the 50k rage, is going to get into the ZL1 and have himself a world class 500(ish)whp ride which cuts corners right along side the M-class Beemer, whereupon it crushes that same beemer like a bug… where the road opens up; but runs a second behind the Gt500 and those guys are going to be HAPPY AS HELL! (Unless they are so foolish as to post a video on here… poor bastards.)
The ZL1 is, in terms of the total package, every BIT of what the GT500 is in terms of a straight-line mauler.
Nearly NONE of the ZL1 drivers are going to see a drag strip, let alone stage up on one. And while I don't know the precise percentage, my guess is that the percentage of 500 owners which set their rides on the track will be MUCH higher.
Two different groups of guys… The problem Ford has is that ONE of those groups is MUCH larger than the other and they're on the wrong side of that equation, for the moment.
Last edited by OVA1; 11-09-2013 at 01:42 PM.
11-09-2013, 01:23 PM
#419
Oh we're SO close.
Of course it has everything to do with Manufacturers.
Did you see the outcome of that race? Did you see what is supposed to be a stock Ford Pony Car overpowering Chevy's Stock Base Vette?
In that, you see my point.
Ford didn't build a car to compete with Pony Cars, thus Ford didn't build a car to be considered, discussed and otherwise positioned among Pony cars.
Ford built a car to be noticed as a contender in the Sports Market. By simply doing what BUYERS and OWNERS have always done and therefore what would have been done, had Ford not done it themselves and in the process, never have gotten the credit AS A MANUFACTURER.
Chevy is building world class sports cars. Ford is NOW… "competing"; meaning they are now literally SEEN as being in competition with those cars.
This was NOT the case, until the '13 500 showed up with a decent chassis and MASSIVE modifications (within the scope of production builds … similar to what Chevy did with the ZR1) without anywhere NEAR the costs or liability if that bitch fell flat on its ***.
They simultaneously made the ZL1 look like crap… and pushed the flagship line of their traditional arch competitor, elevating their brand in the process.
I think it was a great move. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but I doubt it.
The C7 is not designed to keep up with the 500.
AGAIN, you've swerved dead on into my point. Chevy was not designing ANYTHING to compete with 700 HP.
Ford's got a monster that serves the purpose of causing people to take notice and to set Fords all over YouTube running down the Chevy lineup.
Where Chevy has the advantage is precisely where you claimed the disadvantage of the 500… CHASSIS and SUSPENSION.
Now… let's be honest. Assume you've got a superior platform, which suffers a power deficiency with it's otherwise exceedingly well designed ridiculously efficient NA engine.
What would ya do?
(So would the General… and everyone else.)
Good things are comin' friend… and if we can just keep the bean counters and the Nanny-State OUT of it… it's going to be a BLAST.
Of course it has everything to do with Manufacturers.
Did you see the outcome of that race? Did you see what is supposed to be a stock Ford Pony Car overpowering Chevy's Stock Base Vette?
In that, you see my point.
Ford didn't build a car to compete with Pony Cars, thus Ford didn't build a car to be considered, discussed and otherwise positioned among Pony cars.
Ford built a car to be noticed as a contender in the Sports Market. By simply doing what BUYERS and OWNERS have always done and therefore what would have been done, had Ford not done it themselves and in the process, never have gotten the credit AS A MANUFACTURER.
Chevy is building world class sports cars. Ford is NOW… "competing"; meaning they are now literally SEEN as being in competition with those cars.
This was NOT the case, until the '13 500 showed up with a decent chassis and MASSIVE modifications (within the scope of production builds … similar to what Chevy did with the ZR1) without anywhere NEAR the costs or liability if that bitch fell flat on its ***.
They simultaneously made the ZL1 look like crap… and pushed the flagship line of their traditional arch competitor, elevating their brand in the process.
I think it was a great move. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, but I doubt it.
The C7 is not designed to keep up with the 500.
AGAIN, you've swerved dead on into my point. Chevy was not designing ANYTHING to compete with 700 HP.
Ford's got a monster that serves the purpose of causing people to take notice and to set Fords all over YouTube running down the Chevy lineup.
Where Chevy has the advantage is precisely where you claimed the disadvantage of the 500… CHASSIS and SUSPENSION.
Now… let's be honest. Assume you've got a superior platform, which suffers a power deficiency with it's otherwise exceedingly well designed ridiculously efficient NA engine.
What would ya do?
(So would the General… and everyone else.)
Good things are comin' friend… and if we can just keep the bean counters and the Nanny-State OUT of it… it's going to be a BLAST.
But using your logic.. the 13- GT500 outperforms, and has more power than some Ferraris, and exotics. Is it built to compete with them? No,, not their targeted audience.
A stock M5 BMW could take a Stock C7 out the same way... does that mean the Vette is it's competitor? No.
I see the point you are TRYING to make.. but as far as Mustangs go, their chief rival has always been, and always will be the Camaros. It's just the nature of the beast. I'm sure GM will come out with a Camaro more competitive than they have now. I just like sitting back and seeing whats next.
11-09-2013, 01:39 PM
#420
LOL! I tell ya, if it's NOT, then they just SUCK!
I'm not going to stand on it much, but are ya sure about that?
I see the point you are TRYING to make.. but as far as Mustangs go, their chief rival has always been, and always will be the Camaros. It's just the nature of the beast. I'm sure GM will come out with a Camaro more competitive than they have now. I just like sitting back and seeing whats next.
Beyond that, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But I have faith that time will provide you with the evidence to see what I'm sayin'.