Bolt on 5.0, beats 4th gen 427 stroker camaro SS
03-01-2014, 08:07 AM
#361
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the regular GT is going to have to be faster than the boss to compete with the current 1LE. and the 1LE is just an SS.
03-01-2014, 08:19 AM
#362
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I can't see HoHo's post on this... Donno why, don't care as I'm certain I am not missing much.
That said, I shouldn't have used a Corvette website to verify the LT4 !!
I should at least have checked elsewhere because when I thought about it, my instinct was, "So what?" and then I wanted to verify..
Got it wrong by not doing enough homework... Sorry, HoHo... You got me on that.
Now... I've been busy and am 2 pages behind and I think I may just leave it like this..
That said, I shouldn't have used a Corvette website to verify the LT4 !!
I should at least have checked elsewhere because when I thought about it, my instinct was, "So what?" and then I wanted to verify..Got it wrong by not doing enough homework... Sorry, HoHo... You got me on that.
Now... I've been busy and am 2 pages behind and I think I may just leave it like this..
Fixed. 
What makes you give the edge the the 1LE? It certainly isn't 1/4 mile times. As far as me "twisting" anything, you must not be able to understand; these cars have been out MORE than long enough for the owners to get plenty of seat time, at every track in America in great conditions. The owners of both cars are running better times than the magazine drivers, and the 5.0 has been faster. Period. So with drivers equally as inexperienced in both cars, they are almost dead-nuts even. When the drivers get a chance to learn the cars, the Mustang shows its edge. This is not rocket science. Ceteris paribus, the 5.0 is simply the quicker/faster car. That doesn't make it the end of the world.
What makes you give the edge the the 1LE? It certainly isn't 1/4 mile times. As far as me "twisting" anything, you must not be able to understand; these cars have been out MORE than long enough for the owners to get plenty of seat time, at every track in America in great conditions. The owners of both cars are running better times than the magazine drivers, and the 5.0 has been faster. Period. So with drivers equally as inexperienced in both cars, they are almost dead-nuts even. When the drivers get a chance to learn the cars, the Mustang shows its edge. This is not rocket science. Ceteris paribus, the 5.0 is simply the quicker/faster car. That doesn't make it the end of the world.
The only performance category a 5.0 even can compete in vs a 1LE is acceleration.
No, WE weren't comparing anything... You and 92 were EACH comparing things while the rest of us were having a conversation, constantly reminding you guys it's not a comparison test.
For a guy who never built ANY engine, you sure think you know about doing it. With that, in 1995, I could spend 3k and get a rebuilt 302-308 short block and add my top end parts for 3k or less, total cost and run around in a 300+rwhp car anytime I wanted. I did it numerous times, actually. You didn't know anybody doing that with any 4th gen until WAY later in the game. I can still build that today, or I can use a 351W based and for about 5-6k, make around 500rwhp N/A and be setup to add nitrous and roll with it, or for about the same, I can get around 600rwhp and be strictly N/A.
Oh I've built a couple engines, even helped on my termi engine. I actually honed it. He showed me how and I went after it . But I prefer not to. Unless you have the ability to machine the stuff all you're really doin is assembling them. Besides.....I have a buddy with a really nice racing engine shop. No need for me to.
Coming from you, that's simply HILARIOUS!
The new Mustang is a pretty serious car. I've been reading up on it and Ford isn't releasing engine info to speak of(nothing but the basics). They are getting a little busier about the other hidden mechanisms... This thing should at very least rival the C7 in handling. It's small, light(some say as low as 3100, but I expect 3300+), wide and apparently has quite a bit lower roof line than the current. That part is skewed because I've seen different numbers... inches different and I don't know who's right.
I like the new mustang.....Hell I like most of fords new ****.
That's not difficult at all these days.
The reality is, you know even less about Ford OHV engines than you do their OHC engines and you don't know much of anything about their OHC engines...
I know enough just by looking around on here that if they don't have aftermarket engine components or being boosted that they won't keep up.......sans coyote ****
People tell you that all the time... You just say you meant something else. Does that line qualify for anyone here, or just the special people?
Someone tell the big hammerhead that the standard SS doesn't handle better than the Mustang GT. The 1LE or ZL1 easily beat it, but the everyday SS... No.
For a guy who never built ANY engine, you sure think you know about doing it. With that, in 1995, I could spend 3k and get a rebuilt 302-308 short block and add my top end parts for 3k or less, total cost and run around in a 300+rwhp car anytime I wanted. I did it numerous times, actually. You didn't know anybody doing that with any 4th gen until WAY later in the game. I can still build that today, or I can use a 351W based and for about 5-6k, make around 500rwhp N/A and be setup to add nitrous and roll with it, or for about the same, I can get around 600rwhp and be strictly N/A.
Oh I've built a couple engines, even helped on my termi engine. I actually honed it. He showed me how and I went after it . But I prefer not to. Unless you have the ability to machine the stuff all you're really doin is assembling them. Besides.....I have a buddy with a really nice racing engine shop. No need for me to.
Coming from you, that's simply HILARIOUS!
The new Mustang is a pretty serious car. I've been reading up on it and Ford isn't releasing engine info to speak of(nothing but the basics). They are getting a little busier about the other hidden mechanisms... This thing should at very least rival the C7 in handling. It's small, light(some say as low as 3100, but I expect 3300+), wide and apparently has quite a bit lower roof line than the current. That part is skewed because I've seen different numbers... inches different and I don't know who's right.
I like the new mustang.....Hell I like most of fords new ****.
That's not difficult at all these days.
The reality is, you know even less about Ford OHV engines than you do their OHC engines and you don't know much of anything about their OHC engines...
I know enough just by looking around on here that if they don't have aftermarket engine components or being boosted that they won't keep up.......sans coyote ****
People tell you that all the time... You just say you meant something else. Does that line qualify for anyone here, or just the special people?
Someone tell the big hammerhead that the standard SS doesn't handle better than the Mustang GT. The 1LE or ZL1 easily beat it, but the everyday SS... No.
Why is Boss being compared to 1LE? IE is an option on a Base SS or any model SS? I would take a 1LE over any 5.0 sans Boss. Many people that have SSs can't drive sorry. 5th gens stock run like **** including the ZL1 in hot weather. I would not mind a 1LE but everydealer wants too much for one.
HIO a 96-98 Cobra would wax an LT1 anything. Its not easy though and requires good driving. An LT4 outpowered it though and was faster. In fact twist something on you an LT4 C4 would take out a C5 M6(pre 01) with good driving. Its the truth. A C4 LT5 though not a GM design could take it too. If it were not undergeard it would take out a C5 Z06 any year(and despite being outgeared could take it topend too) past 100 mph too.
Hio is wrong about n/a Fords but is right about 1LE. In the right hands it is a fast car and comparable to a 5.0 base. And it has a better clutch and trans for sure too!!! Better built car too.
HIO a 96-98 Cobra would wax an LT1 anything. Its not easy though and requires good driving. An LT4 outpowered it though and was faster. In fact twist something on you an LT4 C4 would take out a C5 M6(pre 01) with good driving. Its the truth. A C4 LT5 though not a GM design could take it too. If it were not undergeard it would take out a C5 Z06 any year(and despite being outgeared could take it topend too) past 100 mph too.
Hio is wrong about n/a Fords but is right about 1LE. In the right hands it is a fast car and comparable to a 5.0 base. And it has a better clutch and trans for sure too!!! Better built car too.
I'm perfectly right about n/a fords. Like I told itdontrun. The ford guys on here prove me right.
MW 1998 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 SS vs Ford Mustang Cobra Comparison Road Test - YouTube
This is where I've said ford throws out ringers.....certainly not the first time they did that. Does anyone actually believe that model Mustang is faster? I waxed several of those w/o issue.
MT Chevrolet Camaro Road Test. - YouTube
LT4 ~> 1997 Camaro SS, LT-4 - YouTube
LT4 Firehawk article ~> http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...tiac_firehawk/
Lt4's were badasses
01 Firehawk ~> 2001 SLP Pontiac Firebird Firehawk vs. Chevy Camaro SS Road Test - YouTube
About that 5th gen vs Mustang in handling ~>Pony Car Wars! 2011 Ford Mustang GT vs Camaro SS and Challenger SRT8 - YouTube
The suspension was redone on the camaro in for model year 12......but you knew that. That is why you posted that vid.....right? The 11 was meant to compete more with a 3v car. As with the Mustang the camaro has received improvements over the years. Thus the reason the performance goes back and forth.
The 2003 Cobra was out in June of 2002, before 4th gen production stopped. GM had every opportunity in the world to use the LS6 in the 4th gen and didn't.
Did'nt you tell me somewhere that you expected a some development time??? There ya go.....no time to develope a car that was being killed. But they did put out 69 Ls6 Camaros. And if you would like to see what the bolt-on results of those coud've been.....check the sig. The camaro has almost always been a a year or 2 behind the vette anyway. Just the way it is
The number of 3rd gen version that were quick can be counted very easily. Essentially, with exception of the T/A, if wasn't a 1LE or didn't have a 350 under the hood, it basically was TOAST!
Not really......tpi 5speed cars were great runners. A 3rd gen 1LE would *** **** a 5.0 in every way. Someone posted a test of a 1LE 3rd gen tpi car that ran a 13.9 on here once. My dad's 85 tpi IROC was never beat by a 5.0......not that we raced it alot. It was completely stock. But it had no problem taking down the old fox's.
From 1985 through 1993, the Mustang was undoubtedly the bang for the buck champion and nothing was a close 2nd place to it, except another Mustang. The 86 was rougher, due to big changes like SEFI, but had high port heads which needed some help, but could create great power for a smog iron head. After 88, they all got mass air and the cam choices went nuts. I knew guys running 9's in 1992-3 and driving the car home.
I'll give bag for the buck. That's what made them so popular.
They were never "fast" from the factory, but neither was the 3rd gen, except special edition T/A's basically. The 89 GTA was outstanding V6 and all. The Firehawks were all good and most WS6's were. You're run of the mill 5L Camaro or Firebird... Not as good as the Mustang by any stretch. They handled well, but couldn't run as well without an engine swap.
You'll have to ask Mike about that. It took a head swap on his Mustang to keep up with his tpi Formula
I'll expect mine to be near and maybe a bit slow in comparison.
Traction really is a drawback and that track I was on... WOW! It was junk! I think my 60's were around 3 seconds. It was at 80ish mph at the traps, but there was just too much water. We LITERALLY had to drive through water after each pass! No kidding... 
This is where I've said ford throws out ringers.....certainly not the first time they did that. Does anyone actually believe that model Mustang is faster? I waxed several of those w/o issue.
MT Chevrolet Camaro Road Test. - YouTube
LT4 ~> 1997 Camaro SS, LT-4 - YouTube
LT4 Firehawk article ~> http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...tiac_firehawk/
Lt4's were badasses
01 Firehawk ~> 2001 SLP Pontiac Firebird Firehawk vs. Chevy Camaro SS Road Test - YouTube
About that 5th gen vs Mustang in handling ~>Pony Car Wars! 2011 Ford Mustang GT vs Camaro SS and Challenger SRT8 - YouTube
The suspension was redone on the camaro in for model year 12......but you knew that. That is why you posted that vid.....right? The 11 was meant to compete more with a 3v car. As with the Mustang the camaro has received improvements over the years. Thus the reason the performance goes back and forth.
The 2003 Cobra was out in June of 2002, before 4th gen production stopped. GM had every opportunity in the world to use the LS6 in the 4th gen and didn't.
Did'nt you tell me somewhere that you expected a some development time??? There ya go.....no time to develope a car that was being killed. But they did put out 69 Ls6 Camaros. And if you would like to see what the bolt-on results of those coud've been.....check the sig. The camaro has almost always been a a year or 2 behind the vette anyway. Just the way it is
The number of 3rd gen version that were quick can be counted very easily. Essentially, with exception of the T/A, if wasn't a 1LE or didn't have a 350 under the hood, it basically was TOAST!
Not really......tpi 5speed cars were great runners. A 3rd gen 1LE would *** **** a 5.0 in every way. Someone posted a test of a 1LE 3rd gen tpi car that ran a 13.9 on here once. My dad's 85 tpi IROC was never beat by a 5.0......not that we raced it alot. It was completely stock. But it had no problem taking down the old fox's.
From 1985 through 1993, the Mustang was undoubtedly the bang for the buck champion and nothing was a close 2nd place to it, except another Mustang. The 86 was rougher, due to big changes like SEFI, but had high port heads which needed some help, but could create great power for a smog iron head. After 88, they all got mass air and the cam choices went nuts. I knew guys running 9's in 1992-3 and driving the car home.
I'll give bag for the buck. That's what made them so popular.
They were never "fast" from the factory, but neither was the 3rd gen, except special edition T/A's basically. The 89 GTA was outstanding V6 and all. The Firehawks were all good and most WS6's were. You're run of the mill 5L Camaro or Firebird... Not as good as the Mustang by any stretch. They handled well, but couldn't run as well without an engine swap.
You'll have to ask Mike about that. It took a head swap on his Mustang to keep up with his tpi Formula
I'll expect mine to be near and maybe a bit slow in comparison.
Traction really is a drawback and that track I was on... WOW! It was junk! I think my 60's were around 3 seconds. It was at 80ish mph at the traps, but there was just too much water. We LITERALLY had to drive through water after each pass! No kidding... Already made a statement on that..check it out. I was very unbiased unlike your bullshit comment meant to stir ****.
03-01-2014, 10:30 AM
#363
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So again......you would rather take a individual's claim as compared to same day, same prep, same track, similarly optioned car with the same driver testing procedure?
Sometime raw #'s don't tell the whole story. It can't predict how a car reacts to goin over a bump on the track for instance.
Already made a statement on that..check it out. I was very unbiased unlike your bullshit comment meant to stir ****.
Sometime raw #'s don't tell the whole story. It can't predict how a car reacts to goin over a bump on the track for instance.
Already made a statement on that..check it out. I was very unbiased unlike your bullshit comment meant to stir ****.
2) Pretty sure that's exactly what I said. Unless you have some other definition of "forgiving."
3) You wouldn't know "unbiased" if it slapped you in the face with its dick.
03-01-2014, 11:03 AM
#364
Again, this is not me directly comparing my motor to an ls1. It is simply of way for me to say that in the NA realm, when your car already makes the power of a H/C ls1 (using that just to referance an imaginary number in your head), that $1400 for another 50whp in NA work.... is cheap!
03-01-2014, 11:36 AM
#365
I can't prove this but the 98 Cobras always seemed to run faster than the 96-97s ones. Kinda of a mute point since a 98 LS anything could beat it but anyhow...
Hio a 96 LT4 C4 is a sleeper and in the right air can run high 12s. Seen it many times.
Hio a 96 LT4 C4 is a sleeper and in the right air can run high 12s. Seen it many times.
03-01-2014, 12:07 PM
#366
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All forged . . . Best ARP Heads known to man . . . Solid Roller Cam . . . 8000 RPM . . . Budget for REPLACEMENT MOTORS . . . About $15000 - $20000 is a good start, not to mention all the drive-line changes that will be needed !
03-01-2014, 12:21 PM
#368
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Didn't realize the L98 was a 305, like he was talking about...
1) I would much rather take 2+ years of numbers run by owners of the cars to understand a car's potential over numbers run by magazine drivers that spend a weekend with the cars. It took Ranger Armstrong something like 90+ passes to get that 10.85 from his stock C6Z, and Evan Smith had similar experience with the 12s passes he ran in his 4th gen. Edit: Like that test you saw where you claimed Ford sent a "ringer." I think it is MUCH more likely that the person driving the cars was just much better at driving the Cobra from some reason, and struggled with the Z28.
2) Pretty sure that's exactly what I said. Unless you have some other definition of "forgiving."
3) You wouldn't know "unbiased" if it slapped you in the face with its dick.
1) I would much rather take 2+ years of numbers run by owners of the cars to understand a car's potential over numbers run by magazine drivers that spend a weekend with the cars. It took Ranger Armstrong something like 90+ passes to get that 10.85 from his stock C6Z, and Evan Smith had similar experience with the 12s passes he ran in his 4th gen. Edit: Like that test you saw where you claimed Ford sent a "ringer." I think it is MUCH more likely that the person driving the cars was just much better at driving the Cobra from some reason, and struggled with the Z28.
2) Pretty sure that's exactly what I said. Unless you have some other definition of "forgiving."
3) You wouldn't know "unbiased" if it slapped you in the face with its dick.
You on the other hand still want to h/c a 2v.......if that don't show bias I don't know what does. That's just plain retarded.
03-01-2014, 12:54 PM
#371
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I can be very unbiased. You guys don't like it when I am.....and usually I am. Like when I say my notch stops and turns like ****. That's unbiased......but someone won't like that and turn it into a **** storm.
You on the other hand still want to h/c a 2v.......if that don't show bias I don't know what does. That's just plain retarded.
You on the other hand still want to h/c a 2v.......if that don't show bias I don't know what does. That's just plain retarded.
03-01-2014, 01:00 PM
#372
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03-01-2014, 05:06 PM
#376
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Me neither.....don't mean it can't be done though.
Never said it was a breeze. But if my car makes 430+ on a dyno jet, which it would. Then I would assume a cam would pick it up 60+ hp, which is not out of the realm of a cam swap. That would put it at 500~whp. Still on stock heads. Ported heads should be worth 15-30. That puts it right in the realm we are speaking of. And nothing I said is out of the ordinary gains that anyone could see out of a cam or heads.
That would be common sense Hammer.......as you can tell that don't work around here.
Who owned me?? They all tried and it didn't work. How does throwing out hypothetical builds own anyone? The greatest part was their hypothetical builds was 100~hp shy of my bolt-on ls6........look around bud. Most of them are furd guys on a ls forum. What's that tell ya? You don't see me goin to a ford forum and yakkin.
The real treat in all of this is I have the nicest Mustang out of all of them.......go figure
Read above dipshit.
The real treat in all of this is I have the nicest Mustang out of all of them
.......go figureRead above dipshit.
03-01-2014, 05:15 PM
#377
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and make 500rwhp NA on that stock bottom end then Doug I mean that's your favorite line and all...
In the same response you talk about you gaining 90rwhp if you do this and this but talk about hypothetical builds are bogus
Who really twist **** here again?
In the same response you talk about you gaining 90rwhp if you do this and this but talk about hypothetical builds are bogus
Who really twist **** here again?
03-01-2014, 05:44 PM
#378
I highly doubt you will see 60+whp from a cam swap. You have an ls6 cam with 1.8 rockers. That alone is 30+whp over your typical stump puller ls1 cam. For what its worth... back when i had ls6 heads and an ls6 cam on a 6.0 motor, I gained 30whp going to a 236/242 615/615 111+2 lsa cam. Same heads as you, but i had stock rockers and an ls6 intake. I can see you gaining another 30-35 on top of what you have since you have a fast intake... but those 1.8 rockers wont help your case. Unless you went for an extremely radical cam and switch to a different intake and reved it north of 7k.
I gained another 30whp going to ported AFR heads and a port matched ls6 intake with 85mm TB.
I gained another 30whp going to ported AFR heads and a port matched ls6 intake with 85mm TB.
03-01-2014, 06:25 PM
#379
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Agreed. It cost 8k more for these changes:
Comp R tires
1mm bigger rear sway bar
softer rear spring
rear seat delete
bunch of cosmetic nonsense
The only option (in my eyes) that may have made the laguna worth it in 2013... was it was offered in black which just looked badass. Same one in Jay Lenos garage.
Comp R tires
1mm bigger rear sway bar
softer rear spring
rear seat delete
bunch of cosmetic nonsense
The only option (in my eyes) that may have made the laguna worth it in 2013... was it was offered in black which just looked badass. Same one in Jay Lenos garage.
I suppose I'll wait for it..
I'm perfectly right about n/a fords. Like I told itdontrun. The ford guys on here prove me right.
We drive threw the water at my track just to get to the track. Now you can't hook up a 16sec car. But you have massive drag racing experience...got ya.
I'm talking about having to drive through water that reaches the body IN ROUTE the starting line, not just getting to the track..
You wouldn't understand anyway, but the reason it wouldn't hook up was fully explained... I also said I plan to go to a decent track and see what happens when I actually control the shifts, etc. How's YOUR daily driver run on the 1/4 mile??? Does it also get 30mpg on the highway? It's hardly worth discussion. Bottom line here... You can't afford what I bought, so you'll make like the kid at the playground and point out what might... pffft... Meanwhile, your DD is a 15yr old pile of **** made overseas that you don't dare race for fear it will fall apart on the track, not to mention the embarrassment of a 19 second ET and the fact your wife will be mad.
He's saying that if you use L98 heads on a 305, which is a JOKE from the word go, but he don't know that! 305's were basically TRASH and there's NO POSSIBLE WAY to make them run like a Ford 302 or Chevy 350. It simply CANNOT be done, given the same vehicle at the same weight, gearing, etc. The 305 is totally inferior and GM did not design it with anything to do with racing in mind.
Wait! I just saw his response... Okay, whatever he was saying is pointless.
It amazes me... You might be the only LS nut hugger on earth to say he would expect his N/A LS6 a near 85whp advantage from ONLY A CAM SWAP!
Whatever you're taking... pass it around...
While both may be "junk" by standards today, the 302 would annihilate the 305, period. It wasn't close, somewhat close, moderately close, maybe close, perhaps from down the street close... NOPE... It was UTTER ANNIHILATION!
03-01-2014, 06:28 PM
#380
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Hio i onced read a book on the quest for 500+whp from W2W. Its very hard to get and very costly to do. It also has very good info and info on the history of the ls1 on how it came together. Point is yes it is obtainable but for the amount of money you could easily build a turbo ls1 and make way more power. Plus the 500+whp ls1 engines are so radically built it would be a work out just driving it down the road.