Bolt on 5.0, beats 4th gen 427 stroker camaro SS
#41
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Something funny to note: This, being LS1tech, has many comparisons and the most common we have seen over the past 3yrs + have been LS1 as compared to the new 5L. My guess would be, though I may have this all wrong, that it's because most of the members here with LS cars have LS1 cars, F-bodies in most cases. Those guys typically happen to have the LS1 as a power plant, which is good reason for this specific comparison.
Another note, funny or not: It seems now, that the Coyote has made such a massive splash in performance terms, many here are leading the way for everyone to NOT compare the LS1 to the Coyote in any comparison. They'd clearly rather the LS3, but usually some stroked version and almost never the LS1 itself. The reason for that is quite simple. The LS1 itself flat out loses. That's understandable, considering it doesn't benefit from being a highly advanced technical engine.
I've been saying for years, if the LS1 was so great, GM would've never bothered to replace it with more expensive and larger versions of the same design. It's ONLY flaw is that at some point, we run out of cubic inches to expand into and after that, it runs into trouble.
#42
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That's why I used quotations... It's not really an argument, but it's a conversation that almost always turns into the same old hashed out argument.
#46
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A full bolt-on 5.0 with cams would throw down around 480rwhp wouldn't it? So around $4k assuming using all top-quality parts (i.e. kooks). I don't know all the options out there for Ford motors, but those are some pretty good numbers without touching FI.
(Coming from a guy whose LTjuan is slower than a new Honda Odyssey)
(Coming from a guy whose LTjuan is slower than a new Honda Odyssey)
#47
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One more lame attempt to start another waste of time argument.
How many 5L engines have you worked on since 2010? If the answer is less than several(I'm confident it's actually zero), you have no grounds to label them anything negative because you really don't know anything about them.
Me either... seems fairly obvious, while $1,400 sounds like too much to several people, they're APPARENTLY trying to simplify an equation down to the # of cams needed and acting like it's this massive amount of cash... What they don't tend to remember, or maybe they simply don't know, is that 50rwhp is a BIG DEAL for any engine already making over 450 to the wheels.
The number of engines which can see that much benefit for that price... is fairly small. Some here will say that you could get the cam AND a set of heads for the LS1 for that price. What they need to consider is... you'll NEED both to match that 5L power. The 5L, conversely, can use the heads it came with.
YEPPP!
I've spent more testing packages for people over the years... and I haven't done it for over 10yrs. $1,400 isn't much to spend on an engine. Heck. headers can cost that much, but look at all these little adjustments that cost so much... TB's, intakes, even dyno tuning can cost that much. No, it won't for most, but I've certainly seen it happen more than once or twice.
How many 5L engines have you worked on since 2010? If the answer is less than several(I'm confident it's actually zero), you have no grounds to label them anything negative because you really don't know anything about them.
Me either... seems fairly obvious, while $1,400 sounds like too much to several people, they're APPARENTLY trying to simplify an equation down to the # of cams needed and acting like it's this massive amount of cash... What they don't tend to remember, or maybe they simply don't know, is that 50rwhp is a BIG DEAL for any engine already making over 450 to the wheels.
The number of engines which can see that much benefit for that price... is fairly small. Some here will say that you could get the cam AND a set of heads for the LS1 for that price. What they need to consider is... you'll NEED both to match that 5L power. The 5L, conversely, can use the heads it came with.
Not as much as they're impressive. But then again, look who's talking...
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I've spent more testing packages for people over the years... and I haven't done it for over 10yrs. $1,400 isn't much to spend on an engine. Heck. headers can cost that much, but look at all these little adjustments that cost so much... TB's, intakes, even dyno tuning can cost that much. No, it won't for most, but I've certainly seen it happen more than once or twice.
#48
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Ive got $2500 into an entire 416 build that makes over over 500whp thrue stock heads. These guys spending $10,000+ on engines to only gain 50-100whp need to get there **** together and start spending there money in better places.
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
#50
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Ive got $2500 into an entire 416 build that makes over over 500whp thrue stock heads. These guys spending $10,000+ on engines to only gain 50-100whp need to get there **** together and start spending there money in better places.
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
#51
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A full bolt-on 5.0 with cams would throw down around 480rwhp wouldn't it? So around $4k assuming using all top-quality parts (i.e. kooks). I don't know all the options out there for Ford motors, but those are some pretty good numbers without touching FI.
(Coming from a guy whose LTjuan is slower than a new Honda Odyssey)
(Coming from a guy whose LTjuan is slower than a new Honda Odyssey)
#52
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VERY radical. So radical... you would be spending more then 7k.. My buddies 403ci has every part imaginable (ewp, vacuum pump, punched out fast 102, ported big heads, 24X/25X cam, big headers, dual 3" exhaust, etc etc) and made 560whp. No other LSX has come close.
The highest "bolt on" LS car was a c6 z with ported intake, TB, air intake, ARH longtubes, full exhaust, light clutch assembly, maxed out tune, and a pulley. Made 495whp. On youtube... it should have made around 515-520. The reason why i say "maxed out tune" is because they tried to get 500whp out of it just so the customer could have that dyno sheet... and it just wouldnt do it.
The highest "bolt on" LS car was a c6 z with ported intake, TB, air intake, ARH longtubes, full exhaust, light clutch assembly, maxed out tune, and a pulley. Made 495whp. On youtube... it should have made around 515-520. The reason why i say "maxed out tune" is because they tried to get 500whp out of it just so the customer could have that dyno sheet... and it just wouldnt do it.
Your buddy has more money into his EWP, VP, and intake than I do my entire engine lol. I have a a vic jr combo with the supporting cam and STOCK ls6 heads. This cam combo is setup to make peak power around 7,000 and these heads are choking it @6,200 so I cant even get up into the range everything is designed around.
plus those # are thrue 3:91`s and IRS
New heads/cam/intake and ill be disappointed with 550rwhp....
21* timing
ANd yes, it made over 500rwhp as is. 505/490
#55
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Ive got $2500 into an entire 416 build that makes over over 500whp thrue stock heads. These guys spending $10,000+ on engines to only gain 50-100whp need to get there **** together and start spending there money in better places.
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
And for the gentlemen who don't have the time, tools or knowledge to do labor and tuning themselves, that is usually not cheap for a quality build. I certainly agree with you that if someone spends $10k+ on an LSx engine build and only gained 50-100whp (over a stock application I assume), they either got completely ripped off and/or are completely clueless. I don't know how that would be possible to do on an LSx car though.
Last edited by R6cowboy; 02-23-2014 at 05:18 PM.
#56
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Evan is 100% right with everything he has said. A Coyote and Roadrunner is very comparable to an LS3. Stock for stock and bolt ons. I make 434 now with mild bolt ons. Bolt on LS3 cars here make 420....430 being high side. I am changing my bolt on setup still 100% long block and hope for 460-470. 2 of my good buddies have decent size cammed Ls3 vettes and one makes 464 other makes 468. Like Evan said this is real life results. Not Youtube.
#57
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Out of curiosity, list the price of everything you bought/got to complete your 416 motor, from air intake to headers to oil pan (including necessities like gaskets, fluids, bolts) and tuning. Then compare that to what everything would have been purchasing brand new. And for the gentlemen who don't have the time, tools or knowledge to do labor and tuning themselves, that is usually not cheap for a quality build. I certainly agree with you that if someone spends $10k+ on an LSx engine build and only gained 50-100whp (over a stock application I assume), they either got completely ripped off and/or are completely clueless. I don't know how that would be possible to do on an LSx car though.
Callie's dragonslayer crank $450 4"
Eagle h beam 6.125 rods w/arp 2000's $300
Manley platinum series pistons $400
Akerly and child's rings $180
King bearings $130
Vic jr intake $300
Machine work $425
Block $100
Reused all the ls1 gaskets
Pro comp head studs $60
Ls6 heads $200
#58
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Ive got $2500 into an entire 416 build that makes over over 500whp thrue stock heads. These guys spending $10,000+ on engines to only gain 50-100whp need to get there **** together and start spending there money in better places.
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
If you got all those goodies and only pushing 550whp then idk what your doing wrong....
In not counting things like tuning software, headers, etc because the car already had those things. Hell it's got pacesetters on it for Christ sakes.
Callie's dragonslayer crank $450 4"
Eagle h beam 6.125 rods w/arp 2000's $300
Manley platinum series pistons $400
Akerly and child's rings $180
King bearings $130
Vic jr intake $300
Machine work $425
Block $100
Reused all the ls1 gaskets
Pro comp head studs $60
Ls6 heads $200
Callie's dragonslayer crank $450 4"
Eagle h beam 6.125 rods w/arp 2000's $300
Manley platinum series pistons $400
Akerly and child's rings $180
King bearings $130
Vic jr intake $300
Machine work $425
Block $100
Reused all the ls1 gaskets
Pro comp head studs $60
Ls6 heads $200
And with that, you have the audacity... to claim these other guys, building NEW ****, should get their act together...
How does one buy used aftermarket cams that haven't been made yet? C'mon... You're TRULY comparing apples to oranges here and claiming both are red...
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