Bolt on 5.0, beats 4th gen 427 stroker camaro SS
02-24-2014, 07:22 AM
#81
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Yes huh... You didn't read it all... He said his dyno back on post 28.. yours was like 48... Pllllllllfftt... 
Why? People still say Ford needed a blower to keep up and that Ford never made a 400+hp engine till 2011 and anyone actually old enough to think about it has to laugh because they just know better. It's just life... No big deal.
Why? People still say Ford needed a blower to keep up and that Ford never made a 400+hp engine till 2011 and anyone actually old enough to think about it has to laugh because they just know better. It's just life... No big deal.
FYI.......They all made 400+hp engines in the 60's/early 70's
They did need a blower on new era **** untill 2011 model cars.
I'm sure you will find away to twist this and call me some names.
Been there done that. They didn't like those results either.
02-24-2014, 12:12 PM
#82
You have to go back to the 60's to get one from ford. Then of course you want to throw a boss 429 sohc cam motor out.......a motor that was never put in a production car.
FYI.......They all made 400+hp engines in the 60's/early 70's
They did need a blower on new era **** untill 2011 model cars.
FYI.......They all made 400+hp engines in the 60's/early 70's
They did need a blower on new era **** untill 2011 model cars.
The big three all made well over 500+hp n/a engines back then.
Last edited by R6cowboy; 02-24-2014 at 12:27 PM.
02-24-2014, 12:42 PM
#83
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You have to go back to the 60's to get one from ford. Then of course you want to throw a boss 429 sohc cam motor out.......a motor that was never put in a production car. FYI.......They all made 400+hp engines in the 60's/early 70's They did need a blower on new era **** untill 2011 model cars. I'm sure you will find away to twist this and call me some names. Been there done that. They didn't like those results either.
I makes HiO mad, too, when you compare the popularity of the 2.
The best answers from that debate were pretty much "Why not swap a 350 instead of a 305?" And that pretty much says it all. That and a bunch of people who know a guy who knows a guy who knew a guy whose neighbor had a badass fire breathing 305
02-24-2014, 12:44 PM
#84
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Hio, just to clarify the Boss 429 was a pushrod motor, never SOHC. The Boss 429 engine was from the Ford 385 family bigblocks and the 427 SOHC cammer motor you mentioned was from the FE family engines. Two completely different engines. Even though the the 427 Cammer was never put into a production vehicle, anyone could purchase the 660hp n/a beast over-the-counter at the Ford dealer back then. The Boss 429 was only a measly 550-600hp motor. The big three all made well over 500+hp n/a engines back then.
02-24-2014, 01:10 PM
#85
One reason for the GM pony cars having an advantage for years in regards to n/a power was the big brother Corvette handime downs.
Coyote has upper hand against LS1 no argument and its to be expected. LS1 has been replaced with better factory stuff due to the Corvette again. LS1 had some flaws in stock form but for its time its power was awesome. Ford V8 powerplants since that era have also improved. The LS3 is comparable to a Coyote. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Some like the LS3 due to the ease of working on one. Some say its old tech and a smaller more efficient motor is the way to go. Doesn't make owning either one wrong.
HIO has a point about Ford going with a blower in the terminator. Coletti was very unhappy how n/a progress was going with the mod motor in early stages. However no one can think Ford was not capable of building a n/a motor in that era that could compete with the GM stuff. From a cost stand point it was not possible to do so. But saying they could not or not able too is wrong. Plus the Mustang GTs sold like crazy why add power to something making you money?
A speed density 1992 305TPI LB9 dual cat car vs a 302 Ford HO in terms of output was very comparable. In regards to potential the 302 was superior. Sans 93 better pistons,rods and heads could flow more with porting. I remember a guy with a fast 305 back in the mid 90s who was in High tech GM performance who preached the 305 was actually better than the 350 for his needs and power level but I can't remember why he stated that
Coyote has upper hand against LS1 no argument and its to be expected. LS1 has been replaced with better factory stuff due to the Corvette again. LS1 had some flaws in stock form but for its time its power was awesome. Ford V8 powerplants since that era have also improved. The LS3 is comparable to a Coyote. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Some like the LS3 due to the ease of working on one. Some say its old tech and a smaller more efficient motor is the way to go. Doesn't make owning either one wrong.
HIO has a point about Ford going with a blower in the terminator. Coletti was very unhappy how n/a progress was going with the mod motor in early stages. However no one can think Ford was not capable of building a n/a motor in that era that could compete with the GM stuff. From a cost stand point it was not possible to do so. But saying they could not or not able too is wrong. Plus the Mustang GTs sold like crazy why add power to something making you money?
A speed density 1992 305TPI LB9 dual cat car vs a 302 Ford HO in terms of output was very comparable. In regards to potential the 302 was superior. Sans 93 better pistons,rods and heads could flow more with porting. I remember a guy with a fast 305 back in the mid 90s who was in High tech GM performance who preached the 305 was actually better than the 350 for his needs and power level but I can't remember why he stated that
02-24-2014, 01:15 PM
#86
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You have to go back to the 60's to get one from ford. Then of course you want to throw a boss 429 sohc cam motor out.......a motor that was never put in a production car.
FYI.......They all made 400+hp engines in the 60's/early 70's
They did need a blower on new era **** untill 2011 model cars.
I'm sure you will find away to twist this and call me some names.
FYI.......They all made 400+hp engines in the 60's/early 70's
They did need a blower on new era **** untill 2011 model cars.
I'm sure you will find away to twist this and call me some names.
The "BOSS 429" wasn't the "CAMMER" at all. The BOSS 429 was called a "semi-hemi" because Chrysler had trademarked the "HEMI" name. The "CAMMER" was a SOHC 427(actually 425ci), based on the same engine that was the "side oiler" and 427 wedge and was indeed used in production cars... at least the records show Ford sold enough to homologate them. More were sold over the counter, I'm sure. The issue with knowing what's what with THAT engine is the variations. W/O seeing one, you may not know which is in an old Galaxie, since they offered 2 other 427's at the same time, EACH of which was rated at over 400hp.
Been there done that. They didn't like those results either.
02-24-2014, 01:27 PM
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One reason for the GM pony cars having an advantage for years in regards to n/a power was the big brother Corvette handime downs.
Coyote has upper hand against LS1 no argument and its to be expected. LS1 has been replaced with better factory stuff due to the Corvette again. LS1 had some flaws in stock form but for its time its power was awesome.
Coyote has upper hand against LS1 no argument and its to be expected. LS1 has been replaced with better factory stuff due to the Corvette again. LS1 had some flaws in stock form but for its time its power was awesome.
Ford V8 powerplants since that era have also improved. The LS3 is comparable to a Coyote. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Some like the LS3 due to the ease of working on one. Some say its old tech and a smaller more efficient motor is the way to go. Doesn't make owning either one wrong.
HIO has a point about Ford going with a blower in the terminator. Coletti was very unhappy how n/a progress was going with the mod motor in early stages. However no one can think Ford was not capable of building a n/a motor in that era that could compete with the GM stuff. From a cost stand point it was not possible to do so. But saying they could not or not able too is wrong. Plus the Mustang GTs sold like crazy why add power to something making you money?
A speed density 1992 305TPI LB9 dual cat car vs a 302 Ford HO in terms of output was very comparable. In regards to potential the 302 was superior. Sans 93 better pistons,rods and heads could flow more with porting. I remember a guy with a fast 305 back in the mid 90s who was in High tech GM performance who preached the 305 was actually better than the 350 for his needs and power level but I can't remember why he stated that
02-24-2014, 02:10 PM
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02-24-2014, 06:01 PM
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Thanks mike for clearing up the 302 and the 305. I just didnt understand why that guy was comparing the 346 to the 302. Ford in the past has made high hp engines just like GM and Dodge. Im glade Ford is setting the bar though bc hopefully it means GM will do the smart thing and raise it.
02-24-2014, 06:12 PM
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HIO has a point about Ford going with a blower in the terminator. Coletti was very unhappy how n/a progress was going with the mod motor in early stages. However no one can think Ford was not capable of building a n/a motor in that era that could compete with the GM stuff. From a cost stand point it was not possible to do so. But saying they could not or not able too is wrong. Plus the Mustang GTs sold like crazy why add power to something making you money?
02-24-2014, 07:19 PM
#94
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Hio, just to clarify the Boss 429 was a pushrod motor, never SOHC. The Boss 429 engine was from the Ford 385 family bigblocks and the 427 SOHC cammer motor you mentioned was from the FE family engines. Two completely different engines. Even though the the 427 Cammer was never put into a production vehicle, anyone could purchase the 660hp n/a beast over-the-counter at the Ford dealer back then. The Boss 429 was only a measly 550-600hp motor.
The big three all made well over 500+hp n/a engines back then.
The big three all made well over 500+hp n/a engines back then.
HiO gets touchy when comparing the 305 aka GM's joke of a motor to the Ford 302. Nobody builds 305s because they're turds.
I makes HiO mad, too, when you compare the popularity of the 2.
The best answers from that debate were pretty much "Why not swap a 350 instead of a 305?" And that pretty much says it all. That and a bunch of people who know a guy who knows a guy who knew a guy whose neighbor had a badass fire breathing 305
I makes HiO mad, too, when you compare the popularity of the 2.
The best answers from that debate were pretty much "Why not swap a 350 instead of a 305?" And that pretty much says it all. That and a bunch of people who know a guy who knows a guy who knew a guy whose neighbor had a badass fire breathing 305
One reason for the GM pony cars having an advantage for years in regards to n/a power was the big brother Corvette handime downs.
Coyote has upper hand against LS1 no argument and its to be expected. LS1 has been replaced with better factory stuff due to the Corvette again. LS1 had some flaws in stock form but for its time its power was awesome. Ford V8 powerplants since that era have also improved. The LS3 is comparable to a Coyote. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Some like the LS3 due to the ease of working on one. Some say its old tech and a smaller more efficient motor is the way to go. Doesn't make owning either one wrong.
HIO has a point about Ford going with a blower in the terminator. Coletti was very unhappy how n/a progress was going with the mod motor in early stages. However no one can think Ford was not capable of building a n/a motor in that era that could compete with the GM stuff. From a cost stand point it was not possible to do so. But saying they could not or not able too is wrong. Plus the Mustang GTs sold like crazy why add power to something making you money?
A speed density 1992 305TPI LB9 dual cat car vs a 302 Ford HO in terms of output was very comparable. In regards to potential the 302 was superior. Sans 93 better pistons,rods and heads could flow more with porting. I remember a guy with a fast 305 back in the mid 90s who was in High tech GM performance who preached the 305 was actually better than the 350 for his needs and power level but I can't remember why he stated that
Coyote has upper hand against LS1 no argument and its to be expected. LS1 has been replaced with better factory stuff due to the Corvette again. LS1 had some flaws in stock form but for its time its power was awesome. Ford V8 powerplants since that era have also improved. The LS3 is comparable to a Coyote. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Some like the LS3 due to the ease of working on one. Some say its old tech and a smaller more efficient motor is the way to go. Doesn't make owning either one wrong.
HIO has a point about Ford going with a blower in the terminator. Coletti was very unhappy how n/a progress was going with the mod motor in early stages. However no one can think Ford was not capable of building a n/a motor in that era that could compete with the GM stuff. From a cost stand point it was not possible to do so. But saying they could not or not able too is wrong. Plus the Mustang GTs sold like crazy why add power to something making you money?
A speed density 1992 305TPI LB9 dual cat car vs a 302 Ford HO in terms of output was very comparable. In regards to potential the 302 was superior. Sans 93 better pistons,rods and heads could flow more with porting. I remember a guy with a fast 305 back in the mid 90s who was in High tech GM performance who preached the 305 was actually better than the 350 for his needs and power level but I can't remember why he stated that
I've said all of the above many times and HoHo argues with me on each issue... But he'll probably let the dead dog lie this time, thank you.
This too and I've said I personally prefer OHV for my own... but HoHo will say that I am a Ford fan boy because I also tell the truth about Ford engines, which, as you know, he despises anyone doing here.
Uh oh... I think he may get upset with you at this point... While all that makes sense, he doesn't like when Ford is shown in a good light, except the rare occasion it comes from him(like his car). Ford did the 385hp 00 Cobra R and we all know that can get big power, these days even without a power adder. It isn't feasible, but is possible. Ford could do much more, as we've seen with the experimental 6.2L(stroked to 7L) Mustang from like 2008(whenever, yrs ago now)... over 800hp, N/A. Regardless the process, it was clearly a Ford engine.
A friend of mine built a 305 in the 90's... It ran high 9's with juice in his beautiful(and gutted) Monte... It blew up after a few passes, but whatever. These things happen with a 300 shot...
This too and I've said I personally prefer OHV for my own... but HoHo will say that I am a Ford fan boy because I also tell the truth about Ford engines, which, as you know, he despises anyone doing here.
Uh oh... I think he may get upset with you at this point... While all that makes sense, he doesn't like when Ford is shown in a good light, except the rare occasion it comes from him(like his car). Ford did the 385hp 00 Cobra R and we all know that can get big power, these days even without a power adder. It isn't feasible, but is possible. Ford could do much more, as we've seen with the experimental 6.2L(stroked to 7L) Mustang from like 2008(whenever, yrs ago now)... over 800hp, N/A. Regardless the process, it was clearly a Ford engine.
A friend of mine built a 305 in the 90's... It ran high 9's with juice in his beautiful(and gutted) Monte... It blew up after a few passes, but whatever. These things happen with a 300 shot...
Experimental engines are just that. .....experimental
Yes it was. They used that engine in the old showroom stock road race series. It was rated at 400hp if I remember correctly.
Sure I agree with that. ......I mean what the Hell. .... There were dumbass' s such as yourself buying 2v's and thinking they were great.
02-24-2014, 07:26 PM
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You've straight up told me before that if Ford could have given the Mustangs more power than they would have, and they didn't do it because the engines couldn't make more power. And you also explicitly took offense to me saying exactly what Mike said, which was... why do it if they don't need to? I've already told you that my GT wasn't my 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th choice already, btw.
02-24-2014, 07:31 PM
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Try to twist this one Doug;
Surprise surprise...
What is a 69 LS6 ZL1? I am not familiar with that.
Do you really think Ford could not design a n/a motor that runs well? Come now. Simple fact is that didn't need to back then. The cars sold very well and that dictates things. Plus lets be honest if it was not for the Corvette the Fbodies would probably not gotten the L98/LT1/LS1 from the big brother. Don't get be wrong Mustang straightline performance was a huge let down from 94 to 03 sans maybe the 96-98 Cobra and FMS/racing made a ton of money as did the aftermarket so who knows why. The 96 GT was a joke in the straights and Ford lied about mods motors,performance,emissions etc... I do know in the early stages of the teminator, Coletti was unhappy with the 4.6 n/a performance and was sick of being the butt end of jokes on how the 94 and up Mustang was his fault for being fatter and slower.
Do you really think Ford could not design a n/a motor that runs well? Come now. Simple fact is that didn't need to back then. The cars sold very well and that dictates things. Plus lets be honest if it was not for the Corvette the Fbodies would probably not gotten the L98/LT1/LS1 from the big brother. Don't get be wrong Mustang straightline performance was a huge let down from 94 to 03 sans maybe the 96-98 Cobra and FMS/racing made a ton of money as did the aftermarket so who knows why. The 96 GT was a joke in the straights and Ford lied about mods motors,performance,emissions etc... I do know in the early stages of the teminator, Coletti was unhappy with the 4.6 n/a performance and was sick of being the butt end of jokes on how the 94 and up Mustang was his fault for being fatter and slower.
I didn't avoid anything except the stupidity in your posts.
SSSHHHH....they don't like stuff like that brought up.
If ford could've made a decent running n/a engine during that time period don't you think they would've?
Even the very limited production cobra r was not overly impressive for what in was.
SSSHHHH....they don't like stuff like that brought up.
If ford could've made a decent running n/a engine during that time period don't you think they would've?
Even the very limited production cobra r was not overly impressive for what in was.
Why would they? You seem to be more than a little thick in the head, so I'll go slowly. This has nothing to do with "nut-swinging," so just try and comprehend. The Mustang sold FOUR TIMES as many cars as the Camaro and the Firebird COMBINED during the '90s. Now while (like I've said countless times) it would have been awesome if the SN95 cars had more power, they had no actual REASON to do so. It's this thing called profit, and they were making enough of that to not care if the Mustang GT got raped at every stoplight. To say that they "couldn't" make a faster car is one of the most ridiculous things you've ever said, and that means a lot considering you just DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED yourself in another thread TODAY, and couldn't even admit it.
02-24-2014, 07:38 PM
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How in the **** is that twisting OR grasping for straws? Those are direct quotes from a thread a month ago, about this exact same topic. I didn't change one word of those quotes, or take them out of order. Mike asked if you really thought they couldn't make a more powerful motor, and you said "If they could, they would have." There is absolutely ZERO twisted about that at all. Last edited by Irunelevens; 02-24-2014 at 08:00 PM.
02-24-2014, 07:47 PM
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A bit more evidence...
Looks like Mike understood pretty well what you were saying...
Here's the thread, for anybody that cares to read Doug's hypocrisy first-hand;
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...ly-c5z-18.html
Starts with Mike's post #353.
I agree that sales numbers have nothing to do with performance. Only reason I retorted with it is that Hio said Ford couldn't/was not capable do it. Come now any car company can make a motor put out power reliably back then. But why spend the money developing it if there is no need for it. You are a business. You have to make money. Fbodies got a handime down motor from the big brother. Do you really think if there was no Corvette GM would have spent the money developing the LS1/LT1/L98? I don't.
Coletti said many times the blower was to kill the LS1s. No secret. 4.6s couldn't do it in n/a form
"They did a **** job advertising the f-cars then stop making them.......and GM paid the price for it."
BINGO
Coletti said many times the blower was to kill the LS1s. No secret. 4.6s couldn't do it in n/a form
"They did a **** job advertising the f-cars then stop making them.......and GM paid the price for it."
BINGO
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...ly-c5z-18.html
Starts with Mike's post #353.