Roll Cage and Subframe Connectors.
02-03-2009, 10:18 AM
#3
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Find a Quality alignment shop near you!
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02-04-2009, 04:59 PM
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02-06-2009, 07:09 PM
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Ok guys in my opinion you will need to have or keep the subframe cons. I have both. If you think about it. When you have a roll cage that connects up front behind the seats and at the rear of the car. If you dont have subframe cons what is tying the lower sections of the cage together nothing other than sheet metal. And when you have a hard launch it puts alot of stress on the cage and can warp it without anything tying it together. I am sure that you can find alot of articles if you google .
02-07-2009, 08:49 AM
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mitchntx
i dont understand how you can think not tying the bottons of the cage together is a good idea. i understand that weight is a issue but more so is your life. if your cage fails it is your life. a cage is only as strong as its weakest link and that will be the floor pan that holds your the bottom of your cage together.
i dont understand how you can think not tying the bottons of the cage together is a good idea. i understand that weight is a issue but more so is your life. if your cage fails it is your life. a cage is only as strong as its weakest link and that will be the floor pan that holds your the bottom of your cage together.
02-07-2009, 09:35 AM
#15
I guess it boils down to where you are mounting the cage. If it's a bolt-in through the floor pan and fender wells, then you probably have a point. Bolting to the 16 gauge floor pan is like adding ballast to your car. It does nothing for safety and just adds a lot of weight.
But 120 sq/in floor plates that ties the double wall floor above the the front frame, the triple wall rocker panel and triple wall upper spring perch is a solid foundation. Couple that with diagonal and cross bracing, it makes for a rock solid platform.
With or without an SFC, I can put a jack under the rear LCA mount pad and raise the whole side of the car, and still open and close the doors without a problem.
But 120 sq/in floor plates that ties the double wall floor above the the front frame, the triple wall rocker panel and triple wall upper spring perch is a solid foundation. Couple that with diagonal and cross bracing, it makes for a rock solid platform.
With or without an SFC, I can put a jack under the rear LCA mount pad and raise the whole side of the car, and still open and close the doors without a problem.
02-07-2009, 04:17 PM
#16
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mitchntx
As your post stated on the 4th you said that you have sfc's and are planning on cutting them out. I would assume that you still have them on , so obviously you tested your jacking up the car by the lower control arm purch with the sfc's on. so actually you would not have any ides what the outcome would be. Even if the jack idea was the fact it would not mean that you do not need the sfc's. the areas where you are talking about welding your plated for the roll cage is the thickest sections of the car. Understand even though these are the thickest areas and multiple layers, these layers are at best only tack welded together not fully welded sections.
Lets get back to your jack idea. Take in account that you were ever in a accident with the car, well it is not a jack slowly jacking your car up that is going to hit you. it is force depending in how fast you are going and in what direction. With a jack you apply pressure at a slow pace and only have the force of the car pushing down on that section. With a crash tho have the weight of the car plus the force that is behind the speed of the car. I am not trying to argue with you but i do not want to see someone do something half assed and get hurt based on poor information.
so in closing [B]BLACKTA96 yes you will need sfc's.
As your post stated on the 4th you said that you have sfc's and are planning on cutting them out. I would assume that you still have them on , so obviously you tested your jacking up the car by the lower control arm purch with the sfc's on. so actually you would not have any ides what the outcome would be. Even if the jack idea was the fact it would not mean that you do not need the sfc's. the areas where you are talking about welding your plated for the roll cage is the thickest sections of the car. Understand even though these are the thickest areas and multiple layers, these layers are at best only tack welded together not fully welded sections.
Lets get back to your jack idea. Take in account that you were ever in a accident with the car, well it is not a jack slowly jacking your car up that is going to hit you. it is force depending in how fast you are going and in what direction. With a jack you apply pressure at a slow pace and only have the force of the car pushing down on that section. With a crash tho have the weight of the car plus the force that is behind the speed of the car. I am not trying to argue with you but i do not want to see someone do something half assed and get hurt based on poor information.
so in closing [B]BLACKTA96 yes you will need sfc's.
02-07-2009, 05:07 PM
#17
You certainly are doing a lot of assuming ...
Yes, this car has SFCs ...
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis2.htm
No, this one doesn't ...
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis4.htm
No, this car doesn't either ...
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/NicksBuild.htm
And of the 3 other cars we've either built or put the cage in, 2 have no SFCs.
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/
I've had a jack under each of those cars at some point in time.
A little background ...
Chassis #1 has a regional Championships and a National Championship in NASA's CMC.
Chassis #2 has 2 Regional Championships in CMC2.
Chassis #3 has a 2nd and 3rd in region in CMC2
The #28 car has top 3 finishes in points 3 years running.
Here is some wheel to wheel racing with those cars from this past weekend ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-ILKGNH7k
I think I have a clue on how to stiffen a chassis ... what works and what is overkill.
As far as having an accident with or w/o SFC ... twisting of the car is the least of my worries. And, there is evidence, that adding SFCs defeats crush zones, creating unforseen issues in an accident.
BLACKTA96:
SFCs don't hurt anything. But with a properly built cage, they aren't necessary.
Yes, this car has SFCs ...
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis2.htm
No, this one doesn't ...
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis4.htm
No, this car doesn't either ...
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/NicksBuild.htm
And of the 3 other cars we've either built or put the cage in, 2 have no SFCs.
http://www.lawmotorsports.net/
I've had a jack under each of those cars at some point in time.
A little background ...
Chassis #1 has a regional Championships and a National Championship in NASA's CMC.
Chassis #2 has 2 Regional Championships in CMC2.
Chassis #3 has a 2nd and 3rd in region in CMC2
The #28 car has top 3 finishes in points 3 years running.
Here is some wheel to wheel racing with those cars from this past weekend ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-ILKGNH7k
I think I have a clue on how to stiffen a chassis ... what works and what is overkill.
As far as having an accident with or w/o SFC ... twisting of the car is the least of my worries. And, there is evidence, that adding SFCs defeats crush zones, creating unforseen issues in an accident.
BLACKTA96:
SFCs don't hurt anything. But with a properly built cage, they aren't necessary.
02-08-2009, 09:49 AM
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Mitch,
Looking at the quality of cages you do and how they are structured i can see maby not needinh sfc's. You are correct i was assuming that he was going to go with a simple 6-8 point setup. the cages that you have is on a whole nother level than what i was thinking this guy was going with. Looking at the cars you have done they look great and i give you props for quality work.
so i guess the question should have been to start with for black is what type of cage are you planning for? then we can debate if you need sfc's
Looking at the quality of cages you do and how they are structured i can see maby not needinh sfc's. You are correct i was assuming that he was going to go with a simple 6-8 point setup. the cages that you have is on a whole nother level than what i was thinking this guy was going with. Looking at the cars you have done they look great and i give you props for quality work.
so i guess the question should have been to start with for black is what type of cage are you planning for? then we can debate if you need sfc's
02-08-2009, 11:50 AM
#19
And it's the reason I said this.
In the end, I figured we were telling the guy the same thing, just from differing angles. I cringe every time I see a Wolf bolt-in cage and the guy behind the wheel having a false sense of security.
It's no big deal and a good quality debate is a great learning experience for everyone involved.
You definitely got me to thinking about it and there is nothing wrong with stepping back and analyzing. One of the things I've learned about the internet, is many times you run across someone who has a ton of experience and knowledge. You could be the chief engineer for DerHaag or Scott & Riley for all I know.
It's no big deal and a good quality debate is a great learning experience for everyone involved.
You definitely got me to thinking about it and there is nothing wrong with stepping back and analyzing. One of the things I've learned about the internet, is many times you run across someone who has a ton of experience and knowledge. You could be the chief engineer for DerHaag or Scott & Riley for all I know.
