400 HP internally stock no Power adder?
#81
Originally Posted by blk~2000~Z28
It seems like that magic car is getting waxed by other cars and this is not the only forum that wont believe this guys BS. Thanks for that link BTW.
Last edited by Spindoctor; 04-14-2004 at 02:33 AM.
#82
Originally Posted by blk~2000~Z28
So where is the video from that day? So all you can bring to the table is more witty banter a link to another forum. Just post up a video so at least there is a shred of evidence. Seeing is believing, or at least it starts there.
#84
Originally Posted by SilverSurfer
Once again, where do these Vette owners, your customers, post? Give us some links to their posts or something. Post the dyno sheet like you said you would.
It will be tomorrow before the dyno sheet is posted.
#86
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According to the site for Speed Engineering, "I won't stop until we get 400 rwhp." That's on the X package for the LS1 F-body.
I'm thinking that if you bought this x package he'd have to get the car to 400rwhp no matter what it cost, even if it meant going beyond internally stock since that's the selling point of the ad? Just from the legal standpoint I'd make sure I could prove that 400rwhp is repeatable before basing my advertisement on such a large claim compared to what others have done.
I'm skeptical because I actually started a thread in this section a while ago about the highest rwhp numbers for a completely internally stock engine with bolt-ons.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...5&page=1&pp=20
The final numbers that were confirmed were 371rwhp and 378+rwtq. To get to 400/400 is pretty substantial over what's been accomplished so far.
It would be more believable if the car had no air filter with a velocity stack connected to the MAF, no belt, open headers or dumped x-pipe with no mufflers. Something along those lines but it seems like it's in street trim.
I hope the numbers are real since it would be a huge step forward for the LS1 crowd but until they're proven on another dyno or car I don't believe it.
I'm thinking that if you bought this x package he'd have to get the car to 400rwhp no matter what it cost, even if it meant going beyond internally stock since that's the selling point of the ad? Just from the legal standpoint I'd make sure I could prove that 400rwhp is repeatable before basing my advertisement on such a large claim compared to what others have done.
I'm skeptical because I actually started a thread in this section a while ago about the highest rwhp numbers for a completely internally stock engine with bolt-ons.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...5&page=1&pp=20
The final numbers that were confirmed were 371rwhp and 378+rwtq. To get to 400/400 is pretty substantial over what's been accomplished so far.
It would be more believable if the car had no air filter with a velocity stack connected to the MAF, no belt, open headers or dumped x-pipe with no mufflers. Something along those lines but it seems like it's in street trim.
I hope the numbers are real since it would be a huge step forward for the LS1 crowd but until they're proven on another dyno or car I don't believe it.
#87
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i did 400+rwtq with just a lid and catback, of course that was a dyno spike when the car downshifted to 2nd gear but it still did it
i havent been around ls1's on the dyno enough to comment on this situation but if there was any cheating especially with my wife who is a dirty dirty tramp i am just gonna snap. (from a movie for the non adam sandler fans).
also if this proves to be a reality ill buy an x package hehe.
i havent been around ls1's on the dyno enough to comment on this situation but if there was any cheating especially with my wife who is a dirty dirty tramp i am just gonna snap. (from a movie for the non adam sandler fans).
also if this proves to be a reality ill buy an x package hehe.
#88
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Either way, I must admit he is a good businessman if anything.
So far 1391 people have seen this thread, thats 1391 dedicated LS1 people, thats target advertising for sure. Day before yesterday no one here ever heard of his shop, now 1391 people have, 400rwhp or not
Ahh the power of cheese..
So far 1391 people have seen this thread, thats 1391 dedicated LS1 people, thats target advertising for sure. Day before yesterday no one here ever heard of his shop, now 1391 people have, 400rwhp or not
Ahh the power of cheese..
#89
also if this proves to be a reality ill buy an x package hehe.
How many vette owners would like 100 more RWHP without any loss to driveability? I'm willing to bet a whole bunch do.
If this was true, he'd be going out of his way to market the hell out of this "package" and have piles to evidence to silence the 'ers.
But he can't.
Case closed
#90
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Well there is guy around here with an 02 WS6 and his claims are lid/filter, Granatelli Mass air sensor, Mac off-road pipe, Corsa exhaust, and LS1 edit tuning done by himself. He claims that he makes 397rwhp and 385 rwtq... Keep in mind he says that it has stock gears and he has stock exhaust manifolds! I have seen the car run a best of 12.75 @ 109mph with a 2.0 sixty foot time. He claims that with drag tires it has ran in the 11's. However everyone calls b.s. on him all of the time because his car does run better than the average LS1! He claims that it is internally stock... I think that he has some headwork and a stealth cam or something. When my car made 406 rwhp and 384 rwtq with MTI heads/cam he would run right with me and even put a car or so on me when I would goof up my launch. I find it hard to believe this car and the car that I had described above too!
#91
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"In the two examples on this thread, the smaller cam made more peak, and probably more avg tq than the larger cam."
I have no argument that in many cases a smaller cam makes more peak TQ than a larger one. But we were talking about a STOCK LS1 cam being the smaller cam. As I said before, a stock LS1 cam makes jack for TQ compared to most good aftermarket cams.
Again, I'm curious about the head casting number. How can you know for sure that you don't have LS6 heads if you haven't checked the number? Some cars came with them...not many, but some.
I have no argument that in many cases a smaller cam makes more peak TQ than a larger one. But we were talking about a STOCK LS1 cam being the smaller cam. As I said before, a stock LS1 cam makes jack for TQ compared to most good aftermarket cams.
Again, I'm curious about the head casting number. How can you know for sure that you don't have LS6 heads if you haven't checked the number? Some cars came with them...not many, but some.
#92
TECH Senior Member
"397rwhp and 385 rwtq... Keep in mind he says that it has stock gears and he has stock exhaust manifolds!"
With stock exhaust manifolds...ok, the ****'s gettin' REAL deep now! And only runs 109 MPH???
"I was referring to seeing if they were ported or not.."
Ahh, ok. I misunderstood you. But you bring out another point as to why anyone who would actually bet a good deal of money on something like this would want a full teardown afterwards. There are a helluvalotta ways to make major power increases without effecting the sound, drivability, or looks of an engine. My 423 RWHP through an A4, for instance, has ONLY the increased valvetrain noise (due to the aggressive X-ER lobes) and LS6 head castings to show for it. That's it. Make a similar cam on milder lobes and you'd likely make 410 or better with no valvetrain noise.
With stock exhaust manifolds...ok, the ****'s gettin' REAL deep now! And only runs 109 MPH???
"I was referring to seeing if they were ported or not.."
Ahh, ok. I misunderstood you. But you bring out another point as to why anyone who would actually bet a good deal of money on something like this would want a full teardown afterwards. There are a helluvalotta ways to make major power increases without effecting the sound, drivability, or looks of an engine. My 423 RWHP through an A4, for instance, has ONLY the increased valvetrain noise (due to the aggressive X-ER lobes) and LS6 head castings to show for it. That's it. Make a similar cam on milder lobes and you'd likely make 410 or better with no valvetrain noise.
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Originally Posted by Spindoctor
The so called race happened long before the car was anywhere near 400 and he barely won, even though he had a ~500 lb raceweight advantage and is an overly aggressive driver, and she (owner of the car) had never raced before and didn't even know how to speed shift.
#94
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Jesus folks, this guy is pulling your chain. He's just a troll trying to sell parts.
directly from his website
Note : He can do anything as a turnkey. Cam, heads, whatever.
This has to go down as a record for the most ridiculous thread/claim I've read on this board.
directly from his website
400 rwhp X package
The X package consists of a combination of components that work in harmony together with custom tuning to produce the absolute maximum power gains without the use of power adders and without heads and cam. It was first developed on an '01 Z06 Corvette in 2001. This car ran 11.44 @ 122 mph when most cars with heads and cam weren't running that well. This was a daily driver with the stock gear and at full weight. The combination is the key to the X package and the X package is the key to getting the most power available from a daily driver. Some people like not changing heads and cam because it allows them to maintain the factory warranty. Some people just don't want the "race car" sound that comes with a cam. Some people just want to have as much power as a lot of head/cam packages are providing so that when they do heads and cam they will be well ahead of the game. No matter what you want, the X package gives the absolute most power available from bolt-ons. I am currently developing the LS1 F-body X package. I won't stop until we get 400 rwhp. The X packages are available only as in-house turnkey packages.
The X package consists of a combination of components that work in harmony together with custom tuning to produce the absolute maximum power gains without the use of power adders and without heads and cam. It was first developed on an '01 Z06 Corvette in 2001. This car ran 11.44 @ 122 mph when most cars with heads and cam weren't running that well. This was a daily driver with the stock gear and at full weight. The combination is the key to the X package and the X package is the key to getting the most power available from a daily driver. Some people like not changing heads and cam because it allows them to maintain the factory warranty. Some people just don't want the "race car" sound that comes with a cam. Some people just want to have as much power as a lot of head/cam packages are providing so that when they do heads and cam they will be well ahead of the game. No matter what you want, the X package gives the absolute most power available from bolt-ons. I am currently developing the LS1 F-body X package. I won't stop until we get 400 rwhp. The X packages are available only as in-house turnkey packages.
Note :
The X packages are available only as in-house turnkey packages.
This has to go down as a record for the most ridiculous thread/claim I've read on this board.
#96
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Originally Posted by Colonel
"I was referring to seeing if they were ported or not.."
Ahh, ok. I misunderstood you. But you bring out another point as to why anyone who would actually bet a good deal of money on something like this would want a full teardown afterwards. There are a helluvalotta ways to make major power increases without effecting the sound, drivability, or looks of an engine. My 423 RWHP through an A4, for instance, has ONLY the increased valvetrain noise (due to the aggressive X-ER lobes) and LS6 head castings to show for it. That's it. Make a similar cam on milder lobes and you'd likely make 410 or better with no valvetrain noise.
Ahh, ok. I misunderstood you. But you bring out another point as to why anyone who would actually bet a good deal of money on something like this would want a full teardown afterwards. There are a helluvalotta ways to make major power increases without effecting the sound, drivability, or looks of an engine. My 423 RWHP through an A4, for instance, has ONLY the increased valvetrain noise (due to the aggressive X-ER lobes) and LS6 head castings to show for it. That's it. Make a similar cam on milder lobes and you'd likely make 410 or better with no valvetrain noise.
I was skeptical a couple years ago when 400rwhp cam only cars were coming around - until I dynod a couple myself and KNEW the cars had stock heads. The 01-02 cars do very well at times, I have seen a couple lid/catback M6 16" wheel 02 cars go 335/340. Naturally if you were selling something you would quote the lowest stock dyno and the highest modified number, at least I would anyhow.
I would imagine if hitting 400rwhp on a dynojet with a stock engine was your #1 goal it could be done - I just dont think its worth it. If you had your own dynojet, a shop, a mission and a good budget I think its possible, not probable, just possible..
He never said he didnt have higher ratio rockers either, at least I dont think he did..
Anyways, since cam only cars are hitting 420+ nowadays (some without LSX intakes and electric water pumps) whats the big deal anyhow other then internet bragging rights. If you did it, congrats on meeting your goal - if you are BSing, thats fine also. 400rwhp in a perfectly driveable M6 car is like sooo yesterday The question would be, how much to get 400rwp your way and how much to get 400rwhp the normal 'internet' way. If yours costs 2/3 to 1/2 as much you have a winner..
#97
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Originally Posted by Colonel
"397rwhp and 385 rwtq... Keep in mind he says that it has stock gears and he has stock exhaust manifolds!"
With stock exhaust manifolds...ok, the ****'s gettin' REAL deep now! And only runs 109 MPH???
With stock exhaust manifolds...ok, the ****'s gettin' REAL deep now! And only runs 109 MPH???
I know right! I have seen his car on many occasions and it has stock exhaust manifolds on it. I always call but maybe I am the dumb one... I doubt it though.
#99
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"He never said he didnt have higher ratio rockers either, at least I dont think he did.."
And that wouldn't be internally stock either...which is what we're talking about here.
There's only so much you can do to make these engines put out more power without going internal, remaining NA, with full use of the accessories, on standard pump gas. At the risk of simplification they would be...
Really good headers and free flowing exhaust in general.
Underdrive pulleys.
LSX intake with larger TB.
A wideband fuel system (ok, this is getting extreme for an IS engine but it's certainly doable.)
Efficient ducting straight from the TB (there is no MAF because of the WB system) to a cool air spot.
Index the plugs.
Electric water pump.
Get the WOT spark and fuel/air mixture dead on.
Other than that you have the driveline...which is key as well and potentially expensive. You can gun drill the stock axles if you want, install 2.73 gears, CF driveshaft, lightweight flywheel and clutch, featherweight wheels and tires, teflon coat the bearings, lighten the tranny internals, etc, etc, etc...
Does this equal 400/400? The 400 RWHP I *might* can see (I need to do some calulating) with some stretch of the imagination and A TON OF MONEY SPENT which is not the claimed case here. The 400 TQ? I highly doubt it.
And that wouldn't be internally stock either...which is what we're talking about here.
There's only so much you can do to make these engines put out more power without going internal, remaining NA, with full use of the accessories, on standard pump gas. At the risk of simplification they would be...
Really good headers and free flowing exhaust in general.
Underdrive pulleys.
LSX intake with larger TB.
A wideband fuel system (ok, this is getting extreme for an IS engine but it's certainly doable.)
Efficient ducting straight from the TB (there is no MAF because of the WB system) to a cool air spot.
Index the plugs.
Electric water pump.
Get the WOT spark and fuel/air mixture dead on.
Other than that you have the driveline...which is key as well and potentially expensive. You can gun drill the stock axles if you want, install 2.73 gears, CF driveshaft, lightweight flywheel and clutch, featherweight wheels and tires, teflon coat the bearings, lighten the tranny internals, etc, etc, etc...
Does this equal 400/400? The 400 RWHP I *might* can see (I need to do some calulating) with some stretch of the imagination and A TON OF MONEY SPENT which is not the claimed case here. The 400 TQ? I highly doubt it.
#100
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Based on the cylinder pressures, compression ratio, cylinder head flow, and stock camshaft(depending on the year), it is impossible to approach 400rwtq on the stock motor. Physics and engineering tell us otherwise.
The only way to increase torque is to increase the cylinder pressure, increase the stroke, or increase the airflow at an RPM where the cylinder can no longer be sufficiently filled with air.
Are there some ways to improve upon the stock configuration? Yes, but not significantly.
Gator paraphrased : He is spot on. If you fall for this goon's claims you are incredibly foolish. It is obvious that he is being deceptive in the highest order. Either he is being openly deceptive and marketing his product or he has no functional knowledge of the internal combustion engine. In either case, he should be avoided at all costs.
The LS1/LS6 is not a miracle engine. It continues to function in the same manner as all others. Always keep that in mind.
The only way to increase torque is to increase the cylinder pressure, increase the stroke, or increase the airflow at an RPM where the cylinder can no longer be sufficiently filled with air.
Are there some ways to improve upon the stock configuration? Yes, but not significantly.
Gator paraphrased :
Like Barnum and Balley said...... lol.
The LS1/LS6 is not a miracle engine. It continues to function in the same manner as all others. Always keep that in mind.