New dyno #'s after Fast92 install!!
07-05-2008, 08:43 PM
#61
Tech Resident
a couple of weeks ago some guy put on some 1 7/8 headers, everyone was telling him he would loose power, including mr choco, when he dynoed the car he gained, and didnt loose torque, like everyone said he would, same thing here, like i said room to grow and if dosnt hurt stop hating, whenever someone puts something on their car and it make power, and its something that choco dont have he starts hating
, good #s to the op
, good #s to the opThat guy went from STOCK MANIFOLDS to 1 7/8 headers. Of course's he's going to gain all over going from STOCK MANIFOLDS to ANY headers. No one EVER said he'd lose torque going from STOCK MANIFOLDS to 1 7/8 headers, you liar. The argument was he'd lose torque over 1 3/4 headers in most NA 346ci setups. If 1 7/8 headers were the best for NA 346ci setups, then that's what the companies would make standard. There's a reason they're recommended for big power only - sure, they're better than horrible stock manifolds, but they're too big for most applications - virtually every H/C setup on stock displacement.
Not even close to the same argument, you liar. I find it pathetic that you need to lie just to attempt to prove a point (and it's an incorrect point at that, just a vain attempt at a personal attack). And I wouldn't trade my headers for that guy's 1 7/8. I like having the proper sized primaries on my car. It's not "hating." Maybe you should stop "hating" that I have common sense, an area you're severely lacking in.
Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-05-2008 at 08:57 PM.
07-05-2008, 08:45 PM
#62
Tech Resident
07-05-2008, 08:47 PM
#63
Tech Resident
"Typical internet BS?" That's what you're falling for. You've based your opinion on ONE THREAD where there has been information on this site posted for years and years showing the opposite. The FAST intake is a great setup if you're going to go N2O, FI or internal engine work. However, it's not the best choice for a stock/bolt-on application. If the OP will add heads and cam in the future, then it's great that he's planning ahead. However, if he's like the bolt-on guys who never want to go bigger, it's best to just get an LS6 intake. There is a stereotype for a reason. It's because it's been proven over the years.
07-05-2008, 08:52 PM
#64
Tech Resident
oh boy this thread is a good one... just read through all this... love how "when i think of stock internals, i think of stock bottom end" bllahahhaaa... idiot... horrible save
agreed with the part of specifically matching an intake manifold to the components that make up the engine. everything needs to be balanced to a pinpoint, exhaust/scavenging, A:F ratio, etc. and if the amount of the incoming air velocity is not in sync with what the motor is needed it will have an impact...
I'm not saying a negative impact... it will just a have an impact, whether like stated, losing low end torque.
all in all we can agree that adding any intake besides the LS1 will pick up a few ponies but also a matter of cost over hp/tq ratio
agreed with the part of specifically matching an intake manifold to the components that make up the engine. everything needs to be balanced to a pinpoint, exhaust/scavenging, A:F ratio, etc. and if the amount of the incoming air velocity is not in sync with what the motor is needed it will have an impact...
I'm not saying a negative impact... it will just a have an impact, whether like stated, losing low end torque.
all in all we can agree that adding any intake besides the LS1 will pick up a few ponies but also a matter of cost over hp/tq ratio
Virtually anything is going to gain big over a choking LS1 intake. However, the biggest intake isn't always the best for your current setup.
07-05-2008, 09:50 PM
#65
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (70)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles, California (818)
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a surprise, another distorted argument.
That guy went from STOCK MANIFOLDS to 1 7/8 headers. Of course's he's going to gain all over going from STOCK MANIFOLDS to ANY headers. No one EVER said he'd lose torque going from STOCK MANIFOLDS to 1 7/8 headers, you liar. The argument was he'd lose torque over 1 3/4 headers in most NA 346ci setups. If 1 7/8 headers were the best for NA 346ci setups, then that's what the companies would make standard. There's a reason they're recommended for big power only - sure, they're better than horrible stock manifolds, but they're too big for most applications - virtually every H/C setup on stock displacement.
Not even close to the same argument, you liar. I find it pathetic that you need to lie just to attempt to prove a point (and it's an incorrect point at that, just a vain attempt at a personal attack). And I wouldn't trade my headers for that guy's 1 7/8. I like having the proper sized primaries on my car. It's not "hating." Maybe you should stop "hating" that I have common sense, an area you're severely lacking in.
That guy went from STOCK MANIFOLDS to 1 7/8 headers. Of course's he's going to gain all over going from STOCK MANIFOLDS to ANY headers. No one EVER said he'd lose torque going from STOCK MANIFOLDS to 1 7/8 headers, you liar. The argument was he'd lose torque over 1 3/4 headers in most NA 346ci setups. If 1 7/8 headers were the best for NA 346ci setups, then that's what the companies would make standard. There's a reason they're recommended for big power only - sure, they're better than horrible stock manifolds, but they're too big for most applications - virtually every H/C setup on stock displacement.
Not even close to the same argument, you liar. I find it pathetic that you need to lie just to attempt to prove a point (and it's an incorrect point at that, just a vain attempt at a personal attack). And I wouldn't trade my headers for that guy's 1 7/8. I like having the proper sized primaries on my car. It's not "hating." Maybe you should stop "hating" that I have common sense, an area you're severely lacking in.
ur a total moron he went from 1 3/4s
07-05-2008, 11:38 PM
#67
TECH Addict
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ft. Bragg, NC
Posts: 2,210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...haven't read but everything chocotaco has made sense... a 92mm intake doesn't signify that 1-7/8 headers are needed... if anything 1-3/4's and 1-7/8's headers is a bigger discussion depending on "internally" what the engine is capable of... ya the intake and exhaust are opened up the WAHHZOOO but still it's a stock cubed engine which in event doesn't really complement the 92mm intake and 1-7/8 headers? get it? ...and please don't come back and say but they'll help... NO ****!
educate yourself...
educate yourself...
07-06-2008, 12:11 AM
#68
Tech Resident
...haven't read but everything chocotaco has made sense... a 92mm intake doesn't signify that 1-7/8 headers are needed... if anything 1-3/4's and 1-7/8's headers is a bigger discussion depending on "internally" what the engine is capable of... ya the intake and exhaust are opened up the WAHHZOOO but still it's a stock cubed engine which in event doesn't really complement the 92mm intake and 1-7/8 headers? get it? ...and please don't come back and say but they'll help... NO ****!
educate yourself...
educate yourself...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...45#post9136045
The guy on the thread went from MIDLENGTH headers with a shitty y-pipe to ARH 1 7/8 LT's with merge collectors, a velocity spike and the best y-pipe in the business and gained NOTHING. Not a damn thing. LONGTUBES WITH MERGE COLLECTORS, A VELOCITY SPIKE AND A MUCH BETTER Y-PIPE yielded NOTHING over MIDLENGTHS WITH A **** Y-PIPE! And THIS is his evidence
The hilarious thing is, one of the dyno charts doesn't show anything below 3500 rpm's (which makes the "low end torque" argument impossible to show), the dynos weren't even on the same day and the dynos aren't overlayed
The whole comparison is worthless. All it showed is that a premium longtube couldn't outperform a bottom of the barrel midlength for PEAK numbers, where 1 7/8 should shine, let alone low end that isn't even shown on the graphs Ladies and gentlemen, what we have here is a classic case of buyers remorse. We have a guy, themack, in this case, desperately trying to justify the $3,000 he pissed away on an intake and exhaust system that is complete overkill on his completely stock motor. For half the price, he could have gotten an intake and exhaust system that would outperform the one he has now (because it would be suitable for his application) AND he'd have plenty of money left over for a cam and installation.
Whatever helps you sleep at night
07-06-2008, 12:28 AM
#69
TECH Addict
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ft. Bragg, NC
Posts: 2,210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ya i didn't even care to read anymore after the first post on that thread... fuggin useless thread to back any evidence up. not only did the guy only gain minimal results (2rwhp) he was proud of it too what a waste of money... although if he didn't add the cats he may have made an extra 5whp
...lost my train of thought on something too but oh well
...trust me it was constructive
what a waste of money... although if he didn't add the cats he may have made an extra 5whp ...lost my train of thought on something too but oh well
...trust me it was constructive
07-06-2008, 01:55 AM
#70
Tech Resident
lol. I know, it's really hard to keep your thoughts straight sometime. The biggest problem with these boards is people will say and do anything to justify their own purchases. When people ask for opinions on what's best for THEIR application, people nearly always vote for what they own in a vain attempt to justify their own purchases. How often do you see someone asking for a tame exhaust and people recommending GMMG catbacks? Or people asking for a small cam and people butting in saying "go big or go home?"
It's nothing but brand loyalty around here. People spend ridiculous amounts of money on their car and they'll do anything to try and prove to themselves that their money was well spent. In people like themack's case, the facts are against him, so rather than build himself up, he'd rather tear someone else down. That's a lot easier to do. Why look at the facts when you can just insult other people until you feel your purchase is justified? I mean, his parts cost more money so his setup has to be better, right?
Vanity and apathy: destroying our country, one message board at a time.
It's nothing but brand loyalty around here. People spend ridiculous amounts of money on their car and they'll do anything to try and prove to themselves that their money was well spent. In people like themack's case, the facts are against him, so rather than build himself up, he'd rather tear someone else down. That's a lot easier to do. Why look at the facts when you can just insult other people until you feel your purchase is justified? I mean, his parts cost more money so his setup has to be better, right?
Vanity and apathy: destroying our country, one message board at a time.
07-06-2008, 03:14 AM
#71
TECH Addict
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ft. Bragg, NC
Posts: 2,210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
very true... on my old camaro i was running a simple TR224-112 with ported 243's and full bolt ons and was whomping on all these big cammed, huge setup motors... only since i put the engine together RIGHT... and for probably less money. it's all about taking the entire setup as a whole and putting it together how it should be... and this was with only 430rwhp... hell of a tune 
...not to mention it's all in the tune too
...not to mention it's all in the tune too
07-06-2008, 11:20 AM
#72
Tech Resident
Exactly 
Big cammed cars are great for dyno racers. However, the 224 cams seem to be the ideal cam for the LS1's stock displacement. Sure, you could make a better combo with a big cam and premium heads, but hardly anyone takes the time to make the combo work. They'll buy an MS3 and AFR heads and assume since they spent tons of money on a big setup, they'll have a winner. It doesn't work like that. Everything has to be set up to match each other. Because no one takes the time to do that, I guarantee your combo will walk people day and night who spent twice as much on a combo that sucks to drive on the street.
Lots of guys on this site have a power curve like Mount Everest. Just like you said, a bad combo and bad tune with great peak numbers will lose to smaller setups all day long.
Big cammed cars are great for dyno racers. However, the 224 cams seem to be the ideal cam for the LS1's stock displacement. Sure, you could make a better combo with a big cam and premium heads, but hardly anyone takes the time to make the combo work. They'll buy an MS3 and AFR heads and assume since they spent tons of money on a big setup, they'll have a winner. It doesn't work like that. Everything has to be set up to match each other. Because no one takes the time to do that, I guarantee your combo will walk people day and night who spent twice as much on a combo that sucks to drive on the street.Lots of guys on this site have a power curve like Mount Everest. Just like you said, a bad combo and bad tune with great peak numbers will lose to smaller setups all day long.
07-06-2008, 11:41 AM
#73
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (70)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles, California (818)
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly Big cammed cars are great for dyno racers. However, the 224 cams seem to be the ideal cam for the LS1's stock displacement. Sure, you could make a better combo with a big cam and premium heads, but hardly anyone takes the time to make the combo work. They'll buy an MS3 and AFR heads and assume since they spent tons of money on a big setup, they'll have a winner. It doesn't work like that. Everything has to be set up to match each other. Because no one takes the time to do that, I guarantee your combo will walk people day and night who spent twice as much on a combo that sucks to drive on the street.
Lots of guys on this site have a power curve like Mount Everest. Just like you said, a bad combo and bad tune with great peak numbers will lose to smaller setups all day long.
Big cammed cars are great for dyno racers. However, the 224 cams seem to be the ideal cam for the LS1's stock displacement. Sure, you could make a better combo with a big cam and premium heads, but hardly anyone takes the time to make the combo work. They'll buy an MS3 and AFR heads and assume since they spent tons of money on a big setup, they'll have a winner. It doesn't work like that. Everything has to be set up to match each other. Because no one takes the time to do that, I guarantee your combo will walk people day and night who spent twice as much on a combo that sucks to drive on the street.Lots of guys on this site have a power curve like Mount Everest. Just like you said, a bad combo and bad tune with great peak numbers will lose to smaller setups all day long.
ur so ignorant, his point in his thread was that u specificaly were telling him that he would lose power, which he didnt, if u were to put a fast intake on ur car u would make more power over ur ls6 period and u would still have room to grow, im sorry that u like doing everything 2 times, do it the first and thats it, for some reason ur just mad when people dish out the dough, everytime u say u will lose power bla bla bla, they dont, so whats the argument here, if people dont go with the ls6 u bitch, if they dont go with qtp u bitch, i agree with u on the fact that stuff has to complement each other, but the op dosnt have heads or anything, hes building his car slowly, correct me if im wrong op, if he wants to spend 1200 on an intake setup let him, his money, and plus he wont have to resell it when he goes with better heads a bigger cam, why u ask, cause he already has the intake to complement the setup, h/c car with fast will eat up h/c car with ls6 any day
. and that guy that put the headers on his car, the point was that he wasnt gonna lose power withe the huge headers, once again u missed the point of that thread
07-06-2008, 11:47 AM
#74
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (70)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles, California (818)
Posts: 1,219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
so what ur trying to say is that people on here dont know what they are doing?
if people asked for recomendations, everyone on this board likes different things, for one person a gmmg is tamed, for the other its loud, not everyone thinks alike, and you souldnt be talking about people recomending what they own, your the first to say qtp all the way, when they ask for headers, ur the same way, not everyone is as smart as you
if people asked for recomendations, everyone on this board likes different things, for one person a gmmg is tamed, for the other its loud, not everyone thinks alike, and you souldnt be talking about people recomending what they own, your the first to say qtp all the way, when they ask for headers, ur the same way, not everyone is as smart as you
lol. I know, it's really hard to keep your thoughts straight sometime. The biggest problem with these boards is people will say and do anything to justify their own purchases. When people ask for opinions on what's best for THEIR application, people nearly always vote for what they own in a vain attempt to justify their own purchases. How often do you see someone asking for a tame exhaust and people recommending GMMG catbacks? Or people asking for a small cam and people butting in saying "go big or go home?"
It's nothing but brand loyalty around here. People spend ridiculous amounts of money on their car and they'll do anything to try and prove to themselves that their money was well spent. In people like themack's case, the facts are against him, so rather than build himself up, he'd rather tear someone else down. That's a lot easier to do. Why look at the facts when you can just insult other people until you feel your purchase is justified? I mean, his parts cost more money so his setup has to be better, right?
Vanity and apathy: destroying our country, one message board at a time.
It's nothing but brand loyalty around here. People spend ridiculous amounts of money on their car and they'll do anything to try and prove to themselves that their money was well spent. In people like themack's case, the facts are against him, so rather than build himself up, he'd rather tear someone else down. That's a lot easier to do. Why look at the facts when you can just insult other people until you feel your purchase is justified? I mean, his parts cost more money so his setup has to be better, right?
Vanity and apathy: destroying our country, one message board at a time.
07-06-2008, 03:02 PM
#75
yep, i saw quite a few 224 cams on the fastest cam only list.
most of what you're saying makes sense. one thing you're not considering is a CONSTANT. as in...you must apply the same scenario to all. you can't compare a "small cam that's well setup" to a "poorly setup big cam" because we know who will win and why. compare apples to apples, man. if the same attention to detail is given to both setups, the large cam will win in every aspect except sub 1,200 rpm driving. the only reason the 224 cam is so "great" is because it is so tolerable. any joe dirtE can install this cam and it will run "good" on stock heads, etc. with MINIMAL attention.
as for the OP - congratulations on the gains found with your fast 92 install. basically you are guaranteeing yourself +20whp with almost any cam install from here on out. not to mention should you spray, you can easily install a nice direct port setup.
most of what you're saying makes sense. one thing you're not considering is a CONSTANT. as in...you must apply the same scenario to all. you can't compare a "small cam that's well setup" to a "poorly setup big cam" because we know who will win and why. compare apples to apples, man. if the same attention to detail is given to both setups, the large cam will win in every aspect except sub 1,200 rpm driving. the only reason the 224 cam is so "great" is because it is so tolerable. any joe dirtE can install this cam and it will run "good" on stock heads, etc. with MINIMAL attention.
as for the OP - congratulations on the gains found with your fast 92 install. basically you are guaranteeing yourself +20whp with almost any cam install from here on out. not to mention should you spray, you can easily install a nice direct port setup.
07-06-2008, 03:22 PM
#76
You know, I can see where your coming form regards to velocity. But I don't know that the intake is as important as exhaust or vise versa. With carbed motors, over carbing a motor was very easy for a couple reaosns:
1) Too much CFM kills fuel mixture as there isn't enough velocity over the venturies to properly atomize fuel.
2) Box stock you might have too big of a fuel jet adding to isue #1.
That out of the way, let's think about a fuel injected set up. Velocity through the TB is a lot different than velocity at the intake valve. Allowing low pressure air to flow in to the intake easier with out the restriction IMO can't be a bad thing. Speeding that air up as it goes through the intake port of the head, passing the injector that is already misting the fuel, and in to the chamber is important. IMO the runner length and shape is far more important that tne opening at the end of the intake.
On top of that, think about how a motor works. It's not sucking air in.. The atmosphere is pushing air in to the void that is being created as the piston travels down the bore. A big hole is creating low veloctiy across the TB, then tapering it down to create velocity accross the valve makes sense to me. I could be wrong and haven't proved any of that, but it's what my thinking is..
1) Too much CFM kills fuel mixture as there isn't enough velocity over the venturies to properly atomize fuel.
2) Box stock you might have too big of a fuel jet adding to isue #1.
That out of the way, let's think about a fuel injected set up. Velocity through the TB is a lot different than velocity at the intake valve. Allowing low pressure air to flow in to the intake easier with out the restriction IMO can't be a bad thing. Speeding that air up as it goes through the intake port of the head, passing the injector that is already misting the fuel, and in to the chamber is important. IMO the runner length and shape is far more important that tne opening at the end of the intake.
On top of that, think about how a motor works. It's not sucking air in.. The atmosphere is pushing air in to the void that is being created as the piston travels down the bore. A big hole is creating low veloctiy across the TB, then tapering it down to create velocity accross the valve makes sense to me. I could be wrong and haven't proved any of that, but it's what my thinking is..
07-07-2008, 05:19 AM
#77
Did the OP ever post up the graphs? I'm at work and can't see pics. To me, peak #'s are for dyno queens. The real proof would be the overall gains from say, 4000-7000. This, for me would be the usable powerband at the track, where it counts. Anybody want to post their times up? I'm interested in this thread because I have an LS6 (no I didn't buy it), and am in the process of upgrading to either a vic or a 92
07-07-2008, 09:01 AM
#79
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: SoFla
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe there is a point where there can be too much intake for a stock setup. There are two factors, one is low end velocity (tq) and high end flow (hp). The manifolds we see on the market are designed to be compatible with a stock cube motor all the way up to large displacement motors. Most aftermarket versions also offer the capabilities to port for higher air flow needs. The LS heads flow very well considering they are OEM and the aftermarket manifolds feed them even better. Add heads and cam and the benefits grow.
I believe what Choco is saying (IMHO) is that given the stock combo, there is a point in which the the velocity of an oversized manifold will decrease moving the powerband up thus losing low end torque. To add to that, the runner size/length will boost top end performance but the OEM cam and heads will run out prior to the benefits of a higher RPM capable manifold will allow. So you kind of shoot yourself by going too big on the intake side.
I believe this theory will hold more towards the one-of type manifolds and those custom fabricated sheet metal type. The popular and more common manifolds on the market today should offer gains both down low and up high with room for growth.
Too large of a manifold analogy is like putting a high rise dual tunnel ram intake with dual Holley Dominator 1050's on a stock 350... That's a bit much even if re-jetted
I believe what Choco is saying (IMHO) is that given the stock combo, there is a point in which the the velocity of an oversized manifold will decrease moving the powerband up thus losing low end torque. To add to that, the runner size/length will boost top end performance but the OEM cam and heads will run out prior to the benefits of a higher RPM capable manifold will allow. So you kind of shoot yourself by going too big on the intake side.
I believe this theory will hold more towards the one-of type manifolds and those custom fabricated sheet metal type. The popular and more common manifolds on the market today should offer gains both down low and up high with room for growth.
Too large of a manifold analogy is like putting a high rise dual tunnel ram intake with dual Holley Dominator 1050's on a stock 350... That's a bit much even if re-jetted
07-07-2008, 09:44 AM
#80
Staging Lane
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you want to put your money where your mouth is - I have a STOCK cam/heads/LS1 intake car.
I also have a un-touched FAST 92mm intake on the shelf.
Send me a LS6 intake and pitch in some money for TSP's dynotime and I'll go from: LS1 -> LS6 -> FAST 92mm - all in 1 day.
Read:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iv-internal-engine/908855-i-have-some-fast-intake-questions.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/895368-fast-92mm-results-i-wouldnt-believe-myself-if-i-didnt-see-first-hand.html
FAST is expensive, no doubt about it.
But IMO I don't think you have enough data to argue that the FAST is "too large" for "slightly modded" cars.
OR that the LS6 is better on these "slightly modified" cars.
I'm no expert, and I'm not claiming that I am.
Just so you don't have to read behind the lines, I'm saying that I don't think you know what your talking about.
^^^ Funny to hear, coming from Mr. QTP himself.
I'm anxious to hear your expert argument.