Power Stop rotors?
06-22-2004, 08:47 PM
#1
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Power Stop rotors? Im lookin to get some feedback about the quality of power stop rotors. Not power slot rotors but power stop, they have a considerably lower price than the power slot and seem to be just about the same quality. I am planning on doing the power stop front and rear with some hawk pads. Im on a tight budget and need to do a brake job soon so these seem like a great upgrade from stock. I would appreciate any feedback from guys who are running or have ran the power stop rotors!
Thanks in advance.
---Jack
Thanks in advance.
---Jack
06-22-2004, 09:31 PM
#2
Copy & Paste Moderator
I dont know about those rotors, but a search will help you out with putting together a budget system.
Here are a couple links to get you started:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=rotor
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
Here are a couple links to get you started:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=rotor
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
11-16-2004, 12:21 PM
#3
Originally Posted by fatbody99
Im lookin to get some feedback about the quality of power stop rotors. Not power slot rotors but power stop, they have a considerably lower price than the power slot and seem to be just about the same quality. I am planning on doing the power stop front and rear with some hawk pads. Im on a tight budget and need to do a brake job soon so these seem like a great upgrade from stock. I would appreciate any feedback from guys who are running or have ran the power stop rotors!
Thanks in advance.
---Jack
Thanks in advance.
---Jack
11-16-2004, 03:23 PM
#4
Copy & Paste Moderator
The improvement was from new rotors and better pads, not from cross-drilling/slotting.
Read this for an explantion:
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
Read this for an explantion:
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
11-18-2004, 12:00 PM
#5
Originally Posted by VIP1
The improvement was from new rotors and better pads, not from cross-drilling/slotting.
Read this for an explantion:
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
Read this for an explantion:
http://home.columbus.rr.com/trackbir...led_rotors.htm
The only advantage to cross-drilling/slotting is for less heat. They explain it well, and also the slotted keeps water from sitting on the rotors.
I agree, any high performance pad and rotor will improve over the factory set. The hawk hps pads also reduce your rotor wear and there's less brake dust.
Interesting article though, but they don't take account for the vehicle moving. Think about it, heating up the metal and waving it through the air, which do you think would get cooler first? I bet it's the one with the holes and because it's less, just as it may heat up faster when appling brakes, because of heating it up. It also cools down the fastest. It doesn't require rocket science, just common phyics.
I think they should do a test if they think that's true about wasting time. If the smaller heats up faster due to it's weight, than it applies to cooling down faster also. The structure of the material should be about the same temperature after it's heated reguarless of size. So, the 17 pound metal versus the 20 pound metal so be the same temperature eventually. Same as the damn pot of water. Half the pot of water will boil faster , but they reach the same tempature as the larger pot of water. Which do you think will cool faster? The full pot of water or the half pot of water. Once again, basic physics. It's debateable here.
Like I said, intersting article but show me some scientific proof. As for the cross-drilled rotors, they were really designed for the car show. It so happens, they might have improved on something else. The guy is explaining his theory to the race drivers; I could give them my explination also, try showing them some real results, test the tempatures on a real car and compare. I bet he may change this article a bit.
Last edited by wickedwarlock; 11-18-2004 at 12:19 PM.
11-18-2004, 03:07 PM
#6
Copy & Paste Moderator
This gets discussed all the time I don't really want to get into it again.... anyway ....
Basically the holes dont provide any cooling because during motion, outside air can't really flow though them. The water and slots bit is bogus to. The slots were originally designed to wipe the pad face for older pads that glazed. This isnt really an issue anymore. The holes were originally designed to vent gas from the mating surface between the pad and the rotor. Old pads outgassed, new ones dont. Therefore the holes and slots are no longer needed. Manufacturers invent reasons for them to get people to buy them. Its called marketing. The only reason for the holes and slots now is appearance. The downside is that they create stress points tha can result in cracks.
Here is some good reading:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=slotted
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=rotor
especially this one:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=slotted
The best thread of all (lots of actual technical information from real engineers and of course some arguing) was on www.altimas.net, but it appears that they changed their site and the link no longer works.
http://www.altimas.net/forum/showthr...threadid=32327
Basically the holes dont provide any cooling because during motion, outside air can't really flow though them. The water and slots bit is bogus to. The slots were originally designed to wipe the pad face for older pads that glazed. This isnt really an issue anymore. The holes were originally designed to vent gas from the mating surface between the pad and the rotor. Old pads outgassed, new ones dont. Therefore the holes and slots are no longer needed. Manufacturers invent reasons for them to get people to buy them. Its called marketing. The only reason for the holes and slots now is appearance. The downside is that they create stress points tha can result in cracks.
Here is some good reading:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=slotted
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=rotor
especially this one:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...hlight=slotted
The best thread of all (lots of actual technical information from real engineers and of course some arguing) was on www.altimas.net, but it appears that they changed their site and the link no longer works.
http://www.altimas.net/forum/showthr...threadid=32327
11-18-2004, 09:30 PM
#7
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
Like I said, intersting article but show me some scientific proof. As for the cross-drilled rotors, they were really designed for the car show. It so happens, they might have improved on something else. The guy is explaining his theory to the race drivers; I could give them my explination also, try showing them some real results, test the tempatures on a real car and compare. I bet he may change this article a bit.
Proof, from some very well respected brake vendors (no, powerslot is not a respected brake vendor, when Porsche and others use their stuff, I'll upgrade their status to that of Brembo and the others).
Try these quotes, from actual expert companies who make brakes for race cars:
This is from Baer racing (I don't think it is on their site any longer).
Originally Posted by Baer racing
From Baer Brake Systems
What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and Zinc-Washing my rotors?
In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads began to break down at extreme temperatures. This condition is often referred to as “green pad fade” or “outgassing”. When it does occur, the driver still has a good firm brake pedal, but simply little or no friction. Since this normally happens only at temperatures witnessed in racing, this can be very exciting!
However, with today’s race pad technology, ‘outgassing’ is no longer much of a concern. When shopping for races pads, or even ultra-high performance road pads, look for the phrases, “dynamic surface treatment”, “race ready”, and/or, “pre-burnished”. When these or similar statements are made by the pad manufacturer, the pad in question will likely have little or no problem with ‘outgassing’. Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ‘outgassing’, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack.
Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, it is primarily a visual enhancement behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.
Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential “stress risers” from which cracks can occur. Baer’s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings.
What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and Zinc-Washing my rotors?
In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads began to break down at extreme temperatures. This condition is often referred to as “green pad fade” or “outgassing”. When it does occur, the driver still has a good firm brake pedal, but simply little or no friction. Since this normally happens only at temperatures witnessed in racing, this can be very exciting!
However, with today’s race pad technology, ‘outgassing’ is no longer much of a concern. When shopping for races pads, or even ultra-high performance road pads, look for the phrases, “dynamic surface treatment”, “race ready”, and/or, “pre-burnished”. When these or similar statements are made by the pad manufacturer, the pad in question will likely have little or no problem with ‘outgassing’. Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ‘outgassing’, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack.
Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, it is primarily a visual enhancement behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.
Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential “stress risers” from which cracks can occur. Baer’s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings.
Originally Posted by Brembo
Why use drilled or slotted discs?
Drilling or slotting discs aids the disc in several ways:
The edges of the slots or holes continuously clean and refresh the pad surface as well as providing increased brake "bite". Additionally, they prevent gasses from collecting between the pad and disc interface.
The disc is lightened, thereby decreasing its rotational inertia.
Improved ventilation increases the disc's ability to shed heat, resulting in cooler operating temperatures.
Originally Posted by Wilwood
From Wilwood
Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity.
Slots or grooves in rotor faces are partly a carryover from the days of asbestos pads. Asbestos and other organic pads were prone to "glazing" and the slots tended to help "scrape or de-glaze" them. Drilling and slotting rotors has become popular in street applications for their pure aesthetic value. Wilwood has a large selection of drilled and slotted rotors for a wide range of applications.
Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity.
Slots or grooves in rotor faces are partly a carryover from the days of asbestos pads. Asbestos and other organic pads were prone to "glazing" and the slots tended to help "scrape or de-glaze" them. Drilling and slotting rotors has become popular in street applications for their pure aesthetic value. Wilwood has a large selection of drilled and slotted rotors for a wide range of applications.
Originally Posted by Stoptech
Discs that have been drilled through with a non-intersecting pattern of radial holes. The objects are to provide a number of paths to get rid of the boundary layer of out gassed volatiles and incandescent particles of friction material and to increase "bite" through the provision of many leading edges. The advent of carbon metallic friction materials with their increased temperatures and thermal shock characteristics ended the day of the drilled disc in professional racing. They are still seen (mainly as cosmetic items) on motorbikes and some road going sports cars. Typically in original equipment road car applications these holes are cast then finished machined to provide the best possible conditions by which to resist cracking in use. But they will crack eventually under the circumstances described in another section (see Cracking). Properly designed, drilled discs tend to operate cooler than non-drilled ventilated discs of the same design due the higher flow rates through the vents from the supplemental inlets and increased surface area in the hole. That's right, inlets. The flow is into the hole and out through the vent to the OD of the disc. If discs are to be drilled, the external edges of the holes must be chamfered (or, better yet, radiused) and should also be peened.
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
As for the cross-drilled rotors, they were really designed for the car show.
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
It so happens, they might have improved on something else.
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
The guy is explaining his theory to the race drivers; I could give them my explination also
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
try showing them some real results, test the tempatures on a real car and compare.
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
I bet he may change this article a bit.
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11-18-2004, 09:38 PM
#8
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
Interesting article though, but they don't take account for the vehicle moving. Think about it, heating up the metal and waving it through the air, which do you think would get cooler first? I bet it's the one with the holes and because it's less, just as it may heat up faster when appling brakes, because of heating it up. It also cools down the fastest. It doesn't require rocket science, just common phyics.
Ok, consider this. The lighter rotor will heat up faster, it will also get hotter. So, even if it were to cool faster, it starts at a higher temperature to begin with. You forgot that part.
11-18-2004, 09:56 PM
#9
Oh, and water????
How much water lays on a brake rotor? Remember that motion you spoke of? It's spinning. If you can get water to stay on a brake disk (which is still pretty warm when just driving due to the pads lightly laying on the rotor) which is spinning, you will have finally impressed me. You expect me to believe that water "sticks" to a vertical surface that is spinning and thus trying to "throw" the water off of it???
Uh, ok.
How much water lays on a brake rotor? Remember that motion you spoke of? It's spinning. If you can get water to stay on a brake disk (which is still pretty warm when just driving due to the pads lightly laying on the rotor) which is spinning, you will have finally impressed me. You expect me to believe that water "sticks" to a vertical surface that is spinning and thus trying to "throw" the water off of it???
Uh, ok.
11-18-2004, 10:01 PM
#10
Originally Posted by trackbird
Ok, consider this. The lighter rotor will heat up faster, it will also get hotter. So, even if it were to cool faster, it starts at a higher temperature to begin with. You forgot that part.
when you are boiling water, the surface of the pot = the same for both. So you are applying the same amount of heat to the same surface of the pot, but less water in each.
When you apply the brakes, the contact with the pads to the cross-drilled rotor is less than the full rotors. So hence the more resistance = more heat.
Now the other debate in here could be that the cross-drill brakes would stop less, since there's less resistance. Like I said, the debate could be endless without a test from these companies using the same brands to make it an equal test. There's too many factors to say that it's correct. Physics.
11-18-2004, 10:12 PM
#11
trackbird ,
I'm not trying to start an argument with you, it's just a debateable subject I think. The only real good reasons I see is rotating mass. Every true racer wants less weights so the point makes sense.
I just find it hard to believe that all the major companies make cross-drilled rotors, if they are not an improvement of some sort, why do they all make them? To sucker us in taking our money? Hey, anything is possible.
Oh as for the water, it seems to find a way to stick to anything, moving or not.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you, it's just a debateable subject I think. The only real good reasons I see is rotating mass. Every true racer wants less weights so the point makes sense.
I just find it hard to believe that all the major companies make cross-drilled rotors, if they are not an improvement of some sort, why do they all make them? To sucker us in taking our money? Hey, anything is possible.
Oh as for the water, it seems to find a way to stick to anything, moving or not.
11-18-2004, 10:14 PM
#12
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
the metal should reach the same tempature, just like boiling water. Not necessarily hotter than the other. I bet those cross-drilled rotors and non-crossed would yield the same heat output if they made an 80 foot stop. Than speed up to 80 and stop again. Actually, like I said debateable, a full rotor has more contact points. So there's actually more resistance. More resistance = more heat. So the theory with less is sorta of correct, but also sort of wrong. Like I said, it's debateable without a test.
when you are boiling water, the surface of the pot = the same for both. So you are applying the same amount of heat to the same surface of the pot, but less water in each.
When you apply the brakes, the contact with the pads to the cross-drilled rotor is less than the full rotors. So hence the more resistance = more heat.
Now the other debate in here could be that the cross-drill brakes would stop less, since there's less resistance. Like I said, the debate could be endless without a test from these companies using the same brands to make it an equal test. There's too many factors to say that it's correct. Physics.
when you are boiling water, the surface of the pot = the same for both. So you are applying the same amount of heat to the same surface of the pot, but less water in each.
When you apply the brakes, the contact with the pads to the cross-drilled rotor is less than the full rotors. So hence the more resistance = more heat.
Now the other debate in here could be that the cross-drill brakes would stop less, since there's less resistance. Like I said, the debate could be endless without a test from these companies using the same brands to make it an equal test. There's too many factors to say that it's correct. Physics.
No, the metal won't reach the same temperature. Less metal, when asked to absorb the same amount of heat will see more temperature rise.
If I can find my copy of "The Brake Handbook" around here (I moved and I'm not sure where they went), I'll post the formula for calculating temperature rise in a brake based on the cars weight and speed (kinetic energy, a known value to absorb) and the weight of the brakes (known thermal capacity). Lighter brakes get hotter, that's physics. (I have the math around here, if I can find it).
If I find it, I'll gladly post it. Believe whoever's marketing you'd like. Police do not use "their rotors" as they say. I know of an officer in a Camaro patrol unit who has tried almost all of these rotors, and after 150mph pursuit use, they all warped, cracked (even the slotted, non drilled ones) and became "junk". They have been tested under extreme conditions, they failed. Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, and Baer are leaders (respected leaders) in the performance braking industry. They even admit it was for pad outgassing and lighter weight. I'm not sure what more you'd like. Ferrari uses Brembo brakes, why? Because they actually know what they are doing. I'd suggest listening to those guys before listening to Power stop or whoever. (Disclaimer, Baer used to "renounce" drilled rotors until they found that they could make lots of money on "Eradispeeds". If they were not drilled, they could be nice rotors, though some of them have cracked, even the non drilled under race use).
I'll look for the math, you can believe what you want. I'm getting too tired to argue about this every time it comes up, so I just (typically) don't anymore. If you buy them and like them, great. If you buy them and crack/break them, I told you so. Anything in between....if it makes you happy.
11-18-2004, 10:22 PM
#13
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
trackbird ,
I'm not trying to start an argument with you, it's just a debateable subject I think. The only real good reasons I see is rotating mass. Every true racer wants less weights so the point makes sense.
I just find it hard to believe that all the major companies make cross-drilled rotors, if they are not an improvement of some sort, why do they all make them? To sucker us in taking our money? Hey, anything is possible.
Oh as for the water, it seems to find a way to stick to anything, moving or not.
I'm not trying to start an argument with you, it's just a debateable subject I think. The only real good reasons I see is rotating mass. Every true racer wants less weights so the point makes sense.
I just find it hard to believe that all the major companies make cross-drilled rotors, if they are not an improvement of some sort, why do they all make them? To sucker us in taking our money? Hey, anything is possible.
Oh as for the water, it seems to find a way to stick to anything, moving or not.
You're getting warmer. They sell, that's it.
Water, if you are running in enough water to get it to stick to a rotor that is rotating an warm, you have bigger problems.
Go outside, put water in a bucket, start spinning around, while spinning, use your other hand to dump the bucket inside out. Now, feel the walls of that bucket, are they wet? There may be a drop or two of water here and there, but they are most definately not wet.
Nope, I'm not argueing anymore these days. I'm not argueing anymore tonight. And, I'm generally done argueing this topic.
It's kinda like I said in this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/211436-how-about-some-hard-core-brake-tech.html
Have fun!
11-18-2004, 10:23 PM
#14
Originally Posted by trackbird
No, the metal won't reach the same temperature. Less metal, when asked to absorb the same amount of heat will see more temperature rise.
If I can find my copy of "The Brake Handbook" around here (I moved and I'm not sure where they went), I'll post the formula for calculating temperature rise in a brake based on the cars weight and speed (kinetic energy, a known value to absorb) and the weight of the brakes (known thermal capacity). Lighter brakes get hotter, that's physics. (I have the math around here, if I can find it).
If I find it, I'll gladly post it. Believe whoever's marketing you'd like. Police do not use "their rotors" as they say. I know of an officer in a Camaro patrol unit who has tried almost all of these rotors, and after 150mph pursuit use, they all warped, cracked (even the slotted, non drilled ones) and became "junk". They have been tested under extreme conditions, they failed. Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, and Baer are leaders (respected leaders) in the performance braking industry. They even admit it was for pad outgassing and lighter weight. I'm not sure what more you'd like. Ferrari uses Brembo brakes, why? Because they actually know what they are doing. I'd suggest listening to those guys before listening to Power stop or whoever. (Disclaimer, Baer used to "renounce" drilled rotors until they found that they could make lots of money on "Eradispeeds". If they were not drilled, they could be nice rotors, though some of them have cracked, even the non drilled under race use).
I'll look for the math, you can believe what you want. I'm getting too tired to argue about this every time it comes up, so I just (typically) don't anymore. If you buy them and like them, great. If you buy them and crack/break them, I told you so. Anything in between....if it makes you happy.
If I can find my copy of "The Brake Handbook" around here (I moved and I'm not sure where they went), I'll post the formula for calculating temperature rise in a brake based on the cars weight and speed (kinetic energy, a known value to absorb) and the weight of the brakes (known thermal capacity). Lighter brakes get hotter, that's physics. (I have the math around here, if I can find it).
If I find it, I'll gladly post it. Believe whoever's marketing you'd like. Police do not use "their rotors" as they say. I know of an officer in a Camaro patrol unit who has tried almost all of these rotors, and after 150mph pursuit use, they all warped, cracked (even the slotted, non drilled ones) and became "junk". They have been tested under extreme conditions, they failed. Wilwood, Brembo, Stoptech, and Baer are leaders (respected leaders) in the performance braking industry. They even admit it was for pad outgassing and lighter weight. I'm not sure what more you'd like. Ferrari uses Brembo brakes, why? Because they actually know what they are doing. I'd suggest listening to those guys before listening to Power stop or whoever. (Disclaimer, Baer used to "renounce" drilled rotors until they found that they could make lots of money on "Eradispeeds". If they were not drilled, they could be nice rotors, though some of them have cracked, even the non drilled under race use).
I'll look for the math, you can believe what you want. I'm getting too tired to argue about this every time it comes up, so I just (typically) don't anymore. If you buy them and like them, great. If you buy them and crack/break them, I told you so. Anything in between....if it makes you happy.
11-18-2004, 10:29 PM
#16
https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspension-brakes/228985-brake-pads-rotors-you-been-through.html
Here's another thread with some info on pads and how they work (well, not so well, etc). It may be of value to you.
Here's another thread with some info on pads and how they work (well, not so well, etc). It may be of value to you.
11-18-2004, 10:35 PM
#17
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
trackbird,
thanks for the insight. Now there's more to think about. Honestly, I value everyone's opinon. Everything you debated about makes sense too. Really! thank you :thumb
thanks for the insight. Now there's more to think about. Honestly, I value everyone's opinon. Everything you debated about makes sense too. Really! thank you :thumb
No problem, I'm really not insane (though I sometimes wonder).
The outgassing was from the old "glue" that they used to hold pads together. When it got hot, it "cooked" off some vapors, the vapor would get between the pad and the rotor and (think air hockey puck) lift the pad from the rotor. Pads don't make friction when they are riding on a "pocket" of air. It was referred to as "green fade". Meaning, you'd not exceeded the temperature rating of the pads, and you were having fade issues. Usually, a good bedding session (going out and heating the brakes through a series of hard stops) would heat the pads enough to cook the resins, then green fade was no longer a problem. However, they found that adding holes let the gas "escape" and then the pads stayed on the rotors, and therefore, made friction.
I spoke to Larry at carbotech and he advised me that he uses a ceremic resin and bakes the pads at 2,000 degrees in an oven to cure them. Green fade is not an issue with that resin, and after a 2,000 degree cycle, it wouldn't be anyway.
That is why we had drilled rotors on race cars. And, if it's on a race car, it must be better, right? It's a leftover from the best technology we had in the 70's (give or take) and people are convinced that "drilled rotors are good", so they exist today.
They sure are pretty.
11-18-2004, 10:40 PM
#18
Originally Posted by trackbird
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228985
Here's another thread with some info on pads and how they work (well, not so well, etc). It may be of value to you.
Here's another thread with some info on pads and how they work (well, not so well, etc). It may be of value to you.
11-18-2004, 10:44 PM
#19
Originally Posted by trackbird
No problem, I'm really not insane (though I sometimes wonder).
The outgassing was from the old "glue" that they used to hold pads together. When it got hot, it "cooked" off some vapors, the vapor would get between the pad and the rotor and (think air hockey puck) lift the pad from the rotor. Pads don't make friction when they are riding on a "pocket" of air. It was referred to as "green fade". Meaning, you'd not exceeded the temperature rating of the pads, and you were having fade issues. Usually, a good bedding session (going out and heating the brakes through a series of hard stops) would heat the pads enough to cook the resins, then green fade was no longer a problem. However, they found that adding holes let the gas "escape" and then the pads stayed on the rotors, and therefore, made friction.
I spoke to Larry at carbotech and he advised me that he uses a ceremic resin and bakes the pads at 2,000 degrees in an oven to cure them. Green fade is not an issue with that resin, and after a 2,000 degree cycle, it wouldn't be anyway.
That is why we had drilled rotors on race cars. And, if it's on a race car, it must be better, right? It's a leftover from the best technology we had in the 70's (give or take) and people are convinced that "drilled rotors are good", so they exist today.
They sure are pretty.
The outgassing was from the old "glue" that they used to hold pads together. When it got hot, it "cooked" off some vapors, the vapor would get between the pad and the rotor and (think air hockey puck) lift the pad from the rotor. Pads don't make friction when they are riding on a "pocket" of air. It was referred to as "green fade". Meaning, you'd not exceeded the temperature rating of the pads, and you were having fade issues. Usually, a good bedding session (going out and heating the brakes through a series of hard stops) would heat the pads enough to cook the resins, then green fade was no longer a problem. However, they found that adding holes let the gas "escape" and then the pads stayed on the rotors, and therefore, made friction.
I spoke to Larry at carbotech and he advised me that he uses a ceremic resin and bakes the pads at 2,000 degrees in an oven to cure them. Green fade is not an issue with that resin, and after a 2,000 degree cycle, it wouldn't be anyway.
That is why we had drilled rotors on race cars. And, if it's on a race car, it must be better, right? It's a leftover from the best technology we had in the 70's (give or take) and people are convinced that "drilled rotors are good", so they exist today.
They sure are pretty.
They sure are pretty, now that's good. At least you have a sense of humor too.
I like the looks but obviously, more like "pretty useless!" 
11-18-2004, 11:03 PM
#20
Originally Posted by wickedwarlock
Fantastic, now you explained that very well. No need to look that up.
They sure are pretty, now that's good. At least you have a sense of humor too. I like the looks but obviously, more like "pretty useless!"
They sure are pretty, now that's good. At least you have a sense of humor too.
I like the looks but obviously, more like "pretty useless!" You have to have a sense of humor around here.
HPS pads do seem to make noise. My HP+ are silent. No noise, but they seem to lack bite as well. I like the HPS better for street use and autocross use, they are easier to modulate. Usually you can't get one without the other. If they stop well, they make noise and dust. I've tried most of them, and it's usually the same thing.
Drilled rotors are not "useless", they can work well for show cars and mild street applications. Ok, they can work "well enough". I have surface checking (small cracks) in the face of my solid rotors on my street/autocross car. I'd have destroyed drilled rotors by now. I'm not sure if I can get a picture of them or not, I figure the glare from the flash will make it impossible to see the rotor surface, but I might try to post a pic sometime soon. Anyway, just remember to buy parts based on your application. Show cars? Use whatever is pretty. Daily drivers, you may get away with pretty. Drag car, autocross car, or track day car, stick to solid rotors and good pads. You can destroy non drilled rotors if you run them hard enough. I've seen a few crack from the edge to the inside hub, it still happens.
I'm off to bed, and after a triple shift, you probably should be too.
Night!